Medical/Surgical intervention from another perspective.

dingbat (imported)
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Medical/Surgical intervention from another perspective.

Post by dingbat (imported) »

I've been discussing something recently with someone via pm and I'm wondering if it might be permissible to open it up slightly and have a debate about it? I do realise that this is a section dealing with health issues relating to castration but I really couldn't think where else to put this. If it seems inappropriate, I won't be remotely offended if it gets removed.

It's really about society's perception of us and how this, in turn, makes us takes steps (or not) to change ourselves. Partly it's a question and partly a conundrum...

I'm not going to go into all the minutiae of my own situation (I hear you breathe a sigh of relief!) but suffice it to say that I have a situation which puts me into the 'muddled gender' category. To define that a bit, biologically parts of me are quite definitely female whilst other parts are not. I'm not fully intersexed (but then again, I'm not totally sure how that is defined) but I was born the way I was. What you can see on the outside is not necessarily representative of what goes on internally (physically) or of what organs you have or do not have (internally). People make assumptions mostly based upon what they can see.

In order to fit into society and, presumably, to make me more acceptable, I have been offered over the years various different medical and/or surgical procedures. I have declined all of them. The most obvious procedure was the SRS but there have been other suggestions, mostly relating to hormones. I haven't declined for any moral reason or because I have any objection to anyone else taking any of these measures but purely because I have never felt they were the right option for me.

And yet ...

I find it necessary to alter things about myself in order to make my colleagues etc. feel more comfortable in my presence. The most obvious problem I have here has to do with the fact that I have a very male hair distribution. This causes discomfort and disquiet for people. They either shun you or they whisper, very discreetly, 'you could get something done about that you know' and so I take the option of getting rid of it before they see it. Just easier that way.

But then, I suppose that makes me something of a hypocrite, doesn't it? All my life I feel that I've fought for acceptance, I've been very open and honest about who (and what) I am which has often been a mistake but there you go. I've taken part in various discussions, formal ones involving things such as the Gender Recognition Bill and informal ones, just amongst friends. All the time trying to make the point that we have a right to be as we are.

I'm not at all sure if this is making sense, is it? 🙋

I suppose the actual physical side of it is different for those of you who identify as male. In particular, those of you who opt/choose/decide upon surgical castration. But I can't help wondering whether the emotional side of things are actually very similar, whether you are in my situation or yours?

Hmm, perhaps it's harder to explain this in text than I thought. I guess what I'm saying is, is it unacceptable that I've chosen to refuse surgical/medical options to 'correct' something which I don't feel needs correcting? My gender identity is more than just biology, it's also to do with what exists within my head. If I were to have taken any of the medical/surgical options, I would not feel any more comfortable. On the other hand, society doesn't feel comfortable if I enter into it without making certain changes to myself.

It's a conundrum in a way, isn't it?

Is it possible to just know you are agendered and to feel that this is right despite the fact that doctors just long to correct it and turn you into something one way or the other?

Personally, I don't feel like it's a decision I've made, I just feel it's the way I am. Others might feel differently. But should we ALWAYS be who we are or is it better to make ourselves societally acceptable (whatever that acceptability may be)?

In a way, I suppose those of you who have been castrated would say that the surgical intervention brought you into line with the person that you felt you were in the first place (I know people choose castration for all sorts of reasons and I apologise for generalising), for me it's almost the other way around.

I wonder what the answer is and how people feel about the whole subject (if anyone understands what I mean!!)
Kangan (imported)
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Re: Medical/Surgical intervention from another perspective.

Post by Kangan (imported) »

Personally I don't like the idea of HRT as there are cancer issues. If your body is outwardly female except for the hair, then laser hair removal might be an easy solution. What I'm hearing from you sounds like, "I'm a girl, but I don't look 100% like a girl."

...or perhaps this is too simplistic an approach...?
dingbat (imported)
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Re: Medical/Surgical intervention from another perspective.

Post by dingbat (imported) »

No Kangan, I definitely didn't mean that! (I don't mean that rudely Kangan!)

I certainly do look female on initial inspection but, beyond that, it all gets much more complicated.

I neither feel like a female OR a male.

I would rather live in a world where I didn't have to make any physical changes to myself but, unfortunately, the real world isn't like that.

I have felt under a certain amount of pressure, in the past, to MAKE myself one thing or the other. I have always declined to do that, it just doesn't feel right. When people identify me as female, I often feel almost fraudulent, very hard to explain really. On the other hand, when I tried out the male presentation, that didn't really work for me either.

So, here I sit, in my happily androgynous state wondering whether I can justify my own decisions...
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Re: Medical/Surgical intervention from another perspective.

Post by Kangan (imported) »

dingbat (imported) wrote: Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:59 am No Kangan, I definitely didn't mean that! (I don't mean that rudely Kangan!)

I certainly do look female on initial inspection but, beyond that, it all gets much more complicated.

I neither feel like a female OR a male.

I would rather live in a world where I didn't have to make any physical changes to myself but, unfortunately, the real world isn't like that.

I have felt under a certain amount of pressure, in the past, to MAKE myself one thing or the other. I have always declined to do that, it just doesn't feel right. When people identify me as female, I often feel almost fraudulent, very hard to explain really. On the other hand, when I tried out the male presentation, that didn't really work for me either.

So, here I sit, in my happily androgynous state wondering whether I can justify my own decisions...

No rudeness noted.

You have a dilemma then - being neither truly male nor truly female, and you must live in a two gender world and feel the need to choose. That is a real dilemma.

Again, a simplistic answer - why choose at all? Some folks on here deliberately choose to appear androgynous.

If the majority of people view you as female, why not just go with that? Does it really matter all that much. I guess it does or you wouldn't be here asking the question.... Sorry....
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Re: Medical/Surgical intervention from another perspective.

Post by confuzed (imported) »

dingbat (imported) wrote: Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:59 am No Kangan, I definitely didn't mean that! (I don't mean that rudely Kangan!)

I certainly do look female on initial inspection but, beyond that, it all gets much more complicated.

I neither feel like a female OR a male.

I would rather live in a world where I didn't have to make any physical changes to myself but, unfortunately, the real world isn't like that.

I have felt under a certain amount of pressure, in the past, to MAKE myself one thing or the other. I have always declined to do that, it just doesn't feel right. When people identify me as female, I often feel almost fraudulent, very hard to explain really. On the other hand, when I tried out the male presentation, that didn't really work for me either.

So, here I sit, in my happily androgynous state wondering whether I can justify my own decisions...

Your not alone in that androgynous state, at the moment, I'm right there with you.

Don't feel right as a man, but things would not be right if I was a woman

Even the COGIATI test told me I was androgynous, nether one or the other.
dingbat (imported)
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Re: Medical/Surgical intervention from another perspective.

Post by dingbat (imported) »

I would very happily fit into a sort of 'Orlando' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando:_A_Biography) category (the book, by Virginia Woolf) where I could present either as male or female, dependent on which seemed most appropriate. Although, even that doesn't really suit me, it still requires an adherence to the binary system.

However, Orlando is a fictional novel and I live in real life! It would be frowned upon, I'm sure, if I changed from one to the other (from my employer's point of view, if nothing else).

But, does that really matter? I guess it DOES matter because I wish to continue doing my job. If I were fully t/g then, despite the fact that it can be difficult, I honestly believe it would be an easier position in some ways as then, at least, I could make one change and that would be that (I know, I know, I'm simplifying!) But, for me, it has always seemed that I really only have one choice and this choice is set out by society and NOT by me. If I don't choose to have medical or surgical intervention then I have to AT LEAST pretend to be one thing or the other, for other people's sakes.

I think, perhaps, that's the crux of the matter (although I'm still not sure!)

I'm sure some people would think it's relatively easy for a female-appearing person to cross dress without anyone really noticing and, to some extent, that's a fair point but gender isn't just about appearances, it's also about a mindset. You have to get your head around which gender you are 'playing' (and I really do feel as though I'm playing at partaking in the binary thing!)
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Re: Medical/Surgical intervention from another perspective.

Post by tugon (imported) »

I became a eunuch to be happy with myself. If you are happy as you are I would not change. I do not feel you are being a hypocrite by trying to fit in with simple cosmetic changes. It is tough to face resistance everyday. One day when people are more aware of the true gender variations life will be easier for all.

Emotionally I feel a duality about myself. I am more in touch with emotions and sensations that were blocked by testoterone but I still enjoy some male traits. As a eunuch I feel I have the best of both worlds. Of course for me it is easy being a eunuch as that knowledge is hidden behind clothing. I can imagine how your situation is more difficult day to day.

One thing that is interesting for me is before I was a eunuch a lot of people would say they did not know I was gay. Now as a eunuch most people automatically think I am gay. I think this has been a problem during job interviews and failing to be hired. In this way I can relate to your concerns about issues on the job. I hope you can strike a balance between personal happiness and prfessional success.
dingbat (imported)
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Re: Medical/Surgical intervention from another perspective.

Post by dingbat (imported) »

Thanks for that tugon. It's helpful to hear how other people deal with this. :)

It's funny really, statistically speaking, it's reckoned that around 1 : 4,000 babies are born with some degree of intersex (the terminology is dependent on the specific types of intersexuality, some are labelled as simply 'ambiguous', others are labelled with specific genetic disorders.) I was reading a really interesting document the other day, can't remember where now (but, at a guess, I'd say it was on the Intersex Society of North America website, since it's usually them that produce the most interesting documents!), and it was stating that doctors are now being encouraged NOT to sex a baby who is born with any degree of intersexuality. Mostly based on statistics showing that many intersexed babies grow up to be very unhappy with the gender surgically put upon them by doctors after birth. However, the downside to this report, is that doctors are now being urged to wait until the child is about 12 years old and THEN make a decision, based on the child's preferences.

For me, the problem with that is that I assume the child is only being presented with two options and, at 12, I doubt you're going to question that very much.

My usual experience (if I'm honest with people which I'm often not!) is an initial fascination closely followed by utter revulsion. You can't really blame people, to them it's very simple, there are choices to be made, so make them. To me, it's just not that simple!
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Re: Medical/Surgical intervention from another perspective.

Post by BudleyBare (imported) »

dingbat (imported) wrote: Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:29 am I've been discussing something recently with someone via pm and I'm wondering if it might be permissible to open it up slightly and have a debate about it? ....

I think this subject is very pertinent, and am glad that you posted.

To comment on only one aspect of you what you discussed, I decided not to undergo HRT, and so far have stuck by me decision. I am at a point in my life where I simply do not consider other people's feelings and reactions to me, when it comes to what I put into, take out of, or allow others to put into or take out of my body. There is an inner peace that comes over me when I act this way. If others want to change me, then they are someone I will love (in an agape sense), but simply choose not to have them in my life.

Dingbat: Thanks for your posting. However, I do not think of you as your moniker suggests.
dingbat (imported)
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Re: Medical/Surgical intervention from another perspective.

Post by dingbat (imported) »

I started up this thread after a pm conversation with someone. Since starting it, I've had quite a few pms asking 'are you genetically male or female?' which is a reasonable question and everyone's asked it very politely. However, people clearly feel uncomfortable about having to ask me and so I thought I'd try to clarify it to save people from feeling awkward.

The confusion is partly my fault because if I am ever in the position of having to clarify my status I will initially generally opt to say I'm 'biologically female with some hormonal inconsistencies'. Strictly speaking, this isn't a very accurate description but it suffices in most environments, people usually base their opinions on what they can see and they're happy with that explanation, no need to go any further. Having spent a few weeks here now, I have learnt that people here are more open-minded and better informed than most of society-at-large and so I've felt more comfortable in being more honest. I'm sorry if I've confused people, I generally speak in a pragmatic way and I know (from over 40 years of experience!) that some/many people feel deeply uncomfortable about my status and I don't particularly like repulsing people so I usually try to soften the blow!

So, getting down to it :

Legally, I'm female. My birth certificate and passport are both listed as female. This is mostly because it's not legally possible in the UK to have 'intersex' on these documents. Doctors opted for female when I was born because that seemed the simplest thing. Genetically, I am always labelled as 'ambiguous', a term I particularly dislike as there's nothing much ambiguous about me! I was VERY fortunate in that I had very enlightened parents (hey, they were hippies!) who were always happy to go along with what I felt and what I wanted rather than what doctors wanted. As I became older, things became more complicated. At one point I went through the entire SRS system, but then, just before the point of no return, I declined it. It just wasn't right for me. Doctors still itch to 'correct' me! ;)

My fight (if I have one) is to try to get the world at large to accept us for what we are and not keep trying to change us (unless we want to be changed).

There is a very interesting pdf document, prepared by
dingbat (imported) wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:22 am the Intersex Society of North America,
it's called 'Shifting the Paradigm of Intersex Treatment' (http://www.intersexinitiative.org/pdf/d ... ompare.pdf), some people here might be interested to read it hence the link.

I hope that's cleared it up for people but, if not, please don't worry about offending me if you pm, so long as you ask politely, I really don't mind. :)

BudleyBare, I know exactly what you mean. From a professional point of view, I know how to play the game, I know roughly what's expected of me and I can play that part, it makes for an easier life to just go along with it. From a personal perspective I'm really quite reclusive, not in a sad way, I just much prefer my own company and not having to deal with all the complications other people bring into my life! I guess I'm just too old now to start trying to change to suit other people!
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