A possible solution to poorly edited stories.

[curious_guy (imported)]

Several of us have volunteered to edit stories but nothing has come of it. I sent a PM to IEunuch and he replied that I would have to get the author's permission to correct spelling, grammar and punctuation errors.

I think the story submission system should be changed to add a check box saying:

Check here if you want archive volunteer editors to correct spelling, grammar and punctuation errors.

If the author checks yes there should be a further check box saying:

Check here if you want archive volunteer editors to send the corrected story back to you so that you can approve the changes.

I think many of the authors of badly edited stories do not ask for help because they do not know it is available or they are too shy. If all they had to do was check a box, many of them would do so and we would get better stories.

[dingbat (imported)]

In principle this seems like a good idea curious guy. The only thing I wonder about is this :

I edit articles for a couple of journals and you wouldn't believe the poor grammar and non-sensical syntax which appears on my desk! However, the problem with altering grammar is that you can, quite unintentionally, alter the meaning of a sentence by ascribing grammar which the author hadn't intended. Probably the most famous case of this historically is the edited addition of a comma at the beginning of The Gospel of Mark in the New Testatment! Unfortunately, this comma (which was added in at a later date by an editor who felt that the sentence would read better with the comma added) has resulted in endless misunderstandings of the actual script! In fact, there are now tomes written about 'the comma in Mark'!! People arguing this way and that about whether it alters the inherent meaning of the piece. Of course, there are translation and transliteration problems with the Bible but the point is still there, the addition of this particular comma does (in my opinion) alter the meaning of the text. If just one comma can cause such a furore, then I think editors who regularly 'adapt' the grammar of the author need to think very carefully before altering or improving the grammar of the original author.

Having said that, I find bad syntax almost intolerable. It can render an otherwise interesting article as unreadable.

I'm not sure what the answer is but I'm not at all convinced that one can accurately alter someone else's work. Even if you ask the person concerned to look at your alterations, they might not necessarily understand the way your alterations might be read.

It's one of those difficult questions, bad grammar and syntax does not make for a pleasant reading experience, I would agree with that but I'm not sure that altering it necessarily makes it any better.

Just my two penn'orth for what it's worth (which isn't much!)

[Kangan (imported)]

As previously mentioned, editing can change the meaning. However, unless the story is badly mangled, that shouldn't happen.

There are a large number of stories in the Archive that I find impossible to read mainly doe to the lack of proper paragraphing and run-on sentences. A simple spell checker could fix many of the simpler typos, but syntax and grammar checking requires a bit more intelligence.

I do agree that the author's permission is a good idea.

[curious_guy (imported)]

Probably the most famous case of this historically is the edited addition of a comma at the beginning of The Gospel of Mark in the New Testatment!

Just out of curiosity, could you post the sentence with and without the comma?

[scottTx (imported)]

The old favorite by English teachers: Lets eat grandma....or Lets eat, granma

[dingbat (imported)]

Just out of curiosity, could you post the sentence with and without the comma?

Hi Curious_guy,

I knew I shouldn't have started on this! I'm very happy to pm you the sentence together with a brief explanation of the problems it presents. I think there's a danger of derailing this entire thread if I start posting it on here because it's almost impossible to have a discussion about the comma in Mark without getting involved in the parallel discussion about the so-called 'Johannine comma' (the comma problem in the Gospel of John which is not soley based on grammar but also on the translation of words within the Gospel. If you Google on 'Johannine comma' I'm sure it will throw up various sites which discuss it very fully) and then that leads on to the discussion about the problems with writing down something which is, originally, a spoken story and spoken in a language which does not consist of grammatical tenses as we understand them (the 'Jesus Rose' Vs 'Jesus is risen' argument; ie Who did the rising? Jesus? Or did someone else raise him?). And, even discussing the comma in Mark alone is problematical as there are, in fact, two disputed commas at the beginning of Mark! One which possibly changes the meaning and another which is simply grammatically incorrect and should, in fact, be a full stop!

If anyone particularly WANTS to have this discussion on a main thread then please let me know and I'll do that instead.

Thanks.

[plix (imported)]

Right now I mostly need help with editing German stories. The English stories are not too much of a problem for me to handle, at least not yet

I would accept something like what you suggested about giving permission, provided that the basic guidelines are still required. The permission would be to edit for grammar issues beyond the basic guidelines. That permission could either be given or declined. However, editing to meet the guidelines would still be a must.

We would have to figure out how to work that into the submission system, and there are no guarantees it will ever come to be. But it is something that might be tried at some point.

As for the second part about sending the story back for approval, that would be more complicated and require even more rewriting of the submission system. If the first part were to happen and we didn't work that part in, then giving permission would mean you are willing to accept whatever changes are made until we could work in a system to send the story back and forth.

I now have the ability to edit stories by the way Things should be a lot easier from now on.

[estragen (imported)]

This thread reminds me of a Herb Goldberg cartoon so perfect for the times we live in. I really should have waited for the 13 or 14 posts to follow that will assure the comma is adequately covered from all points of view.

[kristoff]

Quite bluntly, I like the system we have been using and that most such archives online use. You send it to us - it is ours - you have given us an irrevocable license. If the story needs to be chopped, edited, hung up to dry, whatever, do it. If it needs to be amended to fit our standards, do it. If it needs to be shit-canned, do it. Be very cautious of heavy handedness, keeping in mind that it is a rare author here that is a professional, and we want to keep them submitting. If we get into all kinds of approvals, etc., we end up playing kissy-ass political-correctness games, and the whole thing becomes one of those "processes" (I must process this before drawing a conclusion). Plix, it is your story board to run / edit / deal with. Just take charge and do what needs to be done.

[dingbat (imported)]

Ah but Kristoff, that removes our ability to enjoy our pedantry!

Speaking purely for myself, I protest too much about the comma because I have a nasty little habit of chucking commas in all over the place. I tend to phrase the written word in a similar way to the spoken word which, grammatically, is dodgy at best, plain wrong at worst!