One topic that comes up in both this forum and perhaps in the chemical castration forum is the problem with HRT. For non- feminizing eunuchs the problem seems to be that HRT restores many of the problems that castration solves and the absence of any hormones created a menapause like condition of depression and fatigue. But what is the hormonal balance of pre-pubescent boys? They have plenty of energy, are usually not depressed and until puberty have little sex drive? I have searched to see if I can find any information about pediatric endocronology , but all the literature concerns the changes that come with puberty, not what chemicals are there before. It would seem that attempting to balance a eunuchs system to resemble the endocrine profile of say a 9 or 10 year old would make more sense replacement with adult hormones. Has anyone heard anything on this topic? It would seem to offer a solution to the eunuch endocrin problem
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Pre-puberty hormones ?
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farharbour (imported)
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n3rf (imported)
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Re: Pre-puberty hormones ?
Yes - that is what I like to know (learn).
If the T could be reduced by some method like with TENS unit or some other technical method like a "clamp" or some such - like a faucet - then what level T should You set it for ??/ N3RF
If the T could be reduced by some method like with TENS unit or some other technical method like a "clamp" or some such - like a faucet - then what level T should You set it for ??/ N3RF
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Tom Fletcher (imported)
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Re: Pre-puberty hormones ?
It has long been my non-medical opinion that little kids have the same amount of energy as the rest of us. Just a smaller package to fit it in!
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Fixet (imported)
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Re: Pre-puberty hormones ?
This is a interesting post, i also have been wondering about that. As most eunuch's without HRT gets a little breast grow, but pre-puberty doesn't have that problem. so i think pre-pub has a different hormone balance. It would be nice if i could make my hormone balance the same as a pre-pub (without growing of course)
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gandalf (imported)
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Re: Pre-puberty hormones ?
I wonder if it is possibly because prepuberty boys have no hormones, either male or female, to speak of and that's why they have no problems with lack of testosterone. Oh, to be back at that state.
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farharbour (imported)
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Re: Pre-puberty hormones ?
No that is not true, they have different hormone profiles than castrated adults apparently.. the question is what is the endocrine profile of a 9 or 10 year old boy?
Re: Pre-puberty hormones ?
While I'm certainly no expert on the subject, not being an MD-type endocrinologist, there are certain (obvious) differences between little boys and teenagers/grown men. I have noticed these over the years.
This post may get a bit gross, too, so be warned.
After conception, the fertilized egg goes into a state of furious growth. This continues with a chemical cocktail that we still don't fully understand, driving the development process up until birth. Still, the newborn remains in this state of furious growth for several years. I swear, you can just sit there and watch them grow, it seems - or maybe I'm just old!
That's one main difference between boys and men - the chemical mix, in which the family of growth hormones are a major factor. The boys are growing and changing. Men aren't. The metabolism at the cellular level is completely different, being under the influence of some kind of strange biochemical mix.
One other thing I have also read, but again am no expert on, is the influence of the thymus gland. During childhood, in comparison to the rest of the body, it's very large. Once puberty kicks in, the thymus begins to shut down and shrink and stop producing whatever it is that it secretes. By the time that physical growth stops, the thymus is almost totally shut down and only a fraction of its original size. It's as if puberty and the attainment of full growth tells it, "OK, you're not needed anymore."
Back to the growth issue. Anyone who has ever raised kids and is familiar with their bodies - in feeding them, washing them, repairing them, etc., will know or recall that during this phase of serious growth, most of it is size related and not sexually related.
I recall my last job (not this one) where part of my "duty" was to be a babysitter for the owner's grandchildren. At that time, the little one, J., was about 1 year old. The first time I changed his diaper, no kidding, I thought, "Good God, he's hung like a bear!" The kid was huge, I thought. It was almost frightening. But over the next two years, I quickly came to realize that his package was staying the same size while the rest of him continued to grow.
Actually, I'd noticed this before with the other five, so some extent. While the rest of them shot up like weeds and outgrew clothes and shoes faster than you could buy new ones, not much seemed to be happening in the "manhood department" down there.
Anyone who's ever opened a nuclear surprise package diaper will testify to the fact that cleanup of a little boy can be time consuming and quite the bit of work. There has to be a bit of something going on, though, because baby boys in diapers DO get erections. The stimulation during cleanup, obviously, triggers it. I'm sure the baby isn't fantasizing about anyone at the time - it's a pure physical reaction. And believe me, there can be plenty of stimulation when you're cleaning up diarrhea and you go through about 10 baby wipes! If you pay attention, you'll notice that the boy's genitals aren't really getting any bigger, even though the rest of him is. The genital development takes place at the start of puberty.
And believe me, you pay special attention to the little angel's penis when you're changing diapers. It's like having a terrorist with a loaded weapon pointing it at your face the whole time the diaper is open! You watch. You get reflexes rivaling those of a cat! And now and then, you get sprayed!
So why do non-HRT eunuchs sometimes attain total impotency? No idea. How much testosterone is playing a role with baby boys? No idea, either. I can still recall my mother and grandmother making an issue of the fact that I was sometimes noticed with an erection, especially in the bath. It wasn't until my own late attainment of puberty that I began to have problems with it, and moreso in later life. I don't understand this seemingly "reverse" happening, either. Just an observation.
Then along comes puberty. This is analogous to having someone stand on a throw rug, then jerking the rug out from under him and watching him hit the floor. The whole chemical mix of the body changes. Trust me. I've been through it four times, and unless a freaky variant of mumps comes out, or testicle cancer, or some awful accident, #5 is only about 3 years away from it.
Growth changes. It becomes uneven. The testicles awaken and enlarge, secreting their evil juices into the body. The voice changes, you know the drill...all the male secondary sex characteristics rear their ugly head. The genitals begin to grow again. Muscles begin to fill out as never before, the gangling look of long limbs evens out, etc.
Then, in a short time - comparatively speaking - this new phase of growth stops. Full height is attained, the genitals are as large as they'll ever get, despite what all the spam ads say. The boy is now a man. He is under the influence of a new chemical makeup, one that says "Eat it, fuck it, or kill it." Gone is the energetic, bright little boy. In his place is a smelly, surly young man.
A brand new creature - if not somewhat alien - that has evolved over a relatively short time.
If you're lucky, he goes off to college, you get the bill, and he never comes back...but that's another story.
Then we enter the idea of castration. The man who has adapted to the process of having gone through this change of puberty is suddenly faced with another change - removal of the chemicals that changed him. And it's not like putting a car into reverse.
It's not "The Peter Pan Effect". I'm sure anyone who's been there, either due to surgery or illness, can attest to this. You're not suddenly 9 years old again after castration. You do not get back the childhood chemical mix that you had growing up. Pity we can't isolate it and bottle it. If I had half the energy that S. does, I'd conquer the world.
What you get is yet another (and some might say, an unnatural) change in the chemical makeup of the body. There is a new formula for the now-grown body to adapt to, and most times, it's not pretty. In fact, I for one can tell you that when my hormone production crashed, I was miserable for quite a while. I'm sure others will testify to this as well.
In closing, I'd attribute the energy and nonsexual issues of boyhood to the growth factor and the chemical balance of the child's body that is altered by puberty in later life. Growth hormones, secretions of the thymus gland, all that new tissue like bones and muscles being constantly produced and repaired...all of that which changes in later life and cannot be reattained. If any members have a more full understanding of this, please share them.
This post may get a bit gross, too, so be warned.
After conception, the fertilized egg goes into a state of furious growth. This continues with a chemical cocktail that we still don't fully understand, driving the development process up until birth. Still, the newborn remains in this state of furious growth for several years. I swear, you can just sit there and watch them grow, it seems - or maybe I'm just old!
That's one main difference between boys and men - the chemical mix, in which the family of growth hormones are a major factor. The boys are growing and changing. Men aren't. The metabolism at the cellular level is completely different, being under the influence of some kind of strange biochemical mix.
One other thing I have also read, but again am no expert on, is the influence of the thymus gland. During childhood, in comparison to the rest of the body, it's very large. Once puberty kicks in, the thymus begins to shut down and shrink and stop producing whatever it is that it secretes. By the time that physical growth stops, the thymus is almost totally shut down and only a fraction of its original size. It's as if puberty and the attainment of full growth tells it, "OK, you're not needed anymore."
Back to the growth issue. Anyone who has ever raised kids and is familiar with their bodies - in feeding them, washing them, repairing them, etc., will know or recall that during this phase of serious growth, most of it is size related and not sexually related.
I recall my last job (not this one) where part of my "duty" was to be a babysitter for the owner's grandchildren. At that time, the little one, J., was about 1 year old. The first time I changed his diaper, no kidding, I thought, "Good God, he's hung like a bear!" The kid was huge, I thought. It was almost frightening. But over the next two years, I quickly came to realize that his package was staying the same size while the rest of him continued to grow.
Actually, I'd noticed this before with the other five, so some extent. While the rest of them shot up like weeds and outgrew clothes and shoes faster than you could buy new ones, not much seemed to be happening in the "manhood department" down there.
Anyone who's ever opened a nuclear surprise package diaper will testify to the fact that cleanup of a little boy can be time consuming and quite the bit of work. There has to be a bit of something going on, though, because baby boys in diapers DO get erections. The stimulation during cleanup, obviously, triggers it. I'm sure the baby isn't fantasizing about anyone at the time - it's a pure physical reaction. And believe me, there can be plenty of stimulation when you're cleaning up diarrhea and you go through about 10 baby wipes! If you pay attention, you'll notice that the boy's genitals aren't really getting any bigger, even though the rest of him is. The genital development takes place at the start of puberty.
And believe me, you pay special attention to the little angel's penis when you're changing diapers. It's like having a terrorist with a loaded weapon pointing it at your face the whole time the diaper is open! You watch. You get reflexes rivaling those of a cat! And now and then, you get sprayed!
So why do non-HRT eunuchs sometimes attain total impotency? No idea. How much testosterone is playing a role with baby boys? No idea, either. I can still recall my mother and grandmother making an issue of the fact that I was sometimes noticed with an erection, especially in the bath. It wasn't until my own late attainment of puberty that I began to have problems with it, and moreso in later life. I don't understand this seemingly "reverse" happening, either. Just an observation.
Then along comes puberty. This is analogous to having someone stand on a throw rug, then jerking the rug out from under him and watching him hit the floor. The whole chemical mix of the body changes. Trust me. I've been through it four times, and unless a freaky variant of mumps comes out, or testicle cancer, or some awful accident, #5 is only about 3 years away from it.
Growth changes. It becomes uneven. The testicles awaken and enlarge, secreting their evil juices into the body. The voice changes, you know the drill...all the male secondary sex characteristics rear their ugly head. The genitals begin to grow again. Muscles begin to fill out as never before, the gangling look of long limbs evens out, etc.
Then, in a short time - comparatively speaking - this new phase of growth stops. Full height is attained, the genitals are as large as they'll ever get, despite what all the spam ads say. The boy is now a man. He is under the influence of a new chemical makeup, one that says "Eat it, fuck it, or kill it." Gone is the energetic, bright little boy. In his place is a smelly, surly young man.
A brand new creature - if not somewhat alien - that has evolved over a relatively short time.
If you're lucky, he goes off to college, you get the bill, and he never comes back...but that's another story.
Then we enter the idea of castration. The man who has adapted to the process of having gone through this change of puberty is suddenly faced with another change - removal of the chemicals that changed him. And it's not like putting a car into reverse.
It's not "The Peter Pan Effect". I'm sure anyone who's been there, either due to surgery or illness, can attest to this. You're not suddenly 9 years old again after castration. You do not get back the childhood chemical mix that you had growing up. Pity we can't isolate it and bottle it. If I had half the energy that S. does, I'd conquer the world.
What you get is yet another (and some might say, an unnatural) change in the chemical makeup of the body. There is a new formula for the now-grown body to adapt to, and most times, it's not pretty. In fact, I for one can tell you that when my hormone production crashed, I was miserable for quite a while. I'm sure others will testify to this as well.
In closing, I'd attribute the energy and nonsexual issues of boyhood to the growth factor and the chemical balance of the child's body that is altered by puberty in later life. Growth hormones, secretions of the thymus gland, all that new tissue like bones and muscles being constantly produced and repaired...all of that which changes in later life and cannot be reattained. If any members have a more full understanding of this, please share them.
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n3rf (imported)
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Re: Pre-puberty hormones ?
Very well said.
So what is the minimum "comfortable" level of T that an Eunuch desires so he will not NEED extra HRT ??? And how can the T be Trotheled - without surgery or Chemicals ??? ALways curious. N3RF
So what is the minimum "comfortable" level of T that an Eunuch desires so he will not NEED extra HRT ??? And how can the T be Trotheled - without surgery or Chemicals ??? ALways curious. N3RF
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SethRose (imported)
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Re: Pre-puberty hormones ?
The Short Answer: 100 ng/dL
The Long Answer: The Short Answer is practically meaningless. The way hormones work is a mix between a ballet and a grudge match. Some hormones compete for proteins to bond with, some complement one another in various tasks and assist in the competition. Paolo's answer is basically on the right track in that your hormonal cocktail at 9 is radically different for numerous reasons than it is at any other stage in life. Growth isn't the only factor either; there are seemingly infinite stimuli that govern hormonal production from our environment alone. Your position in your career (or lack there of), your level of education, the types of social relationships you experience, etc. all govern which hormones are at play. Diet also introduces yet another set of infinite possibilities. Trying to determine the correct amount of T to offset for Lifestyle and Diet is something like the following equation:
T = (D + 100) L + (E/D) A
Where T is appropriate testosterone, D is Diet plus the 100ng/dL baseline that you suspect to be healthy, times L as Lifestyle. Both D and L are infinite. E is exercise divided by diet times age.
Although the equation is impossible, that does not mean finding the solution is necessarily so. It just means you have a problem that arithmetic can't solve. Fortunately we have other disciplines that can help us, but these are usually much more costly and involve a lot of people in white coats that have their own set of insecurities from reduced T because of their position and education. This is further compounded by the fact that the white coats can't test any of this on animals because even primates have vastly different "normal" hormonal levels than us.
This is why I am approaching this from an altogether different angle! In which, I am asking questions to a community of persons that have elected to disable their testes hormonal production. This neatly avoids all of those silly ethics questions that my more senior white coats with lower T have to deal with. The only limitation to this method of deduction is I need to learn which questions to ask and how to get the community to participate. This has its own set of complications, but with my higher T comes arrogance and a willingness to explore possibly futile endeavors due a maniacal sense of risk vs. reward... so I am coping.
Day by day we both get closer to our goals, as long as each day we take a step in the right direction. You can find my latest steps by reading my post history here.
The Long Answer: The Short Answer is practically meaningless. The way hormones work is a mix between a ballet and a grudge match. Some hormones compete for proteins to bond with, some complement one another in various tasks and assist in the competition. Paolo's answer is basically on the right track in that your hormonal cocktail at 9 is radically different for numerous reasons than it is at any other stage in life. Growth isn't the only factor either; there are seemingly infinite stimuli that govern hormonal production from our environment alone. Your position in your career (or lack there of), your level of education, the types of social relationships you experience, etc. all govern which hormones are at play. Diet also introduces yet another set of infinite possibilities. Trying to determine the correct amount of T to offset for Lifestyle and Diet is something like the following equation:
T = (D + 100) L + (E/D) A
Where T is appropriate testosterone, D is Diet plus the 100ng/dL baseline that you suspect to be healthy, times L as Lifestyle. Both D and L are infinite. E is exercise divided by diet times age.
Although the equation is impossible, that does not mean finding the solution is necessarily so. It just means you have a problem that arithmetic can't solve. Fortunately we have other disciplines that can help us, but these are usually much more costly and involve a lot of people in white coats that have their own set of insecurities from reduced T because of their position and education. This is further compounded by the fact that the white coats can't test any of this on animals because even primates have vastly different "normal" hormonal levels than us.
This is why I am approaching this from an altogether different angle! In which, I am asking questions to a community of persons that have elected to disable their testes hormonal production. This neatly avoids all of those silly ethics questions that my more senior white coats with lower T have to deal with. The only limitation to this method of deduction is I need to learn which questions to ask and how to get the community to participate. This has its own set of complications, but with my higher T comes arrogance and a willingness to explore possibly futile endeavors due a maniacal sense of risk vs. reward... so I am coping.
Day by day we both get closer to our goals, as long as each day we take a step in the right direction. You can find my latest steps by reading my post history here.
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mrt (imported)
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Re: Pre-puberty hormones ?
Testosterone levels to stay happy and healthy is (in general) a very good question. That said it might not be easily answered. I know one fellow with a level around 150 (His natural level) who feels fine that way. And he has tried HRT and said he could detect NO difference. Frankly this amazes me because at 300 I was a damn mess. I had no idea about anything to do with hormones and only when I went on HRT did I know what it felt like at good levels.
I'm one of the guys who doesn't think Testosterone is evil or that it turns men into Screw, Eat or Murder machines. But I would admit that there are men who could be defined that way. Is it testosterone however? Another good question to ponder!?
I'm one of the guys who doesn't think Testosterone is evil or that it turns men into Screw, Eat or Murder machines. But I would admit that there are men who could be defined that way. Is it testosterone however? Another good question to ponder!?