Wickerman help

[thefraj (imported)]

If I may - I would love to tap into the wealth of intellect here on EA. I am looking for advice, opinions and ideas. Particularly from those better educated than myself!

It is generally accepted (without question!) that the Pagans or Druids (terms often used interchangably!) used a Wickerman in which people were trapped, and burned as human sacrifice. The Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicker_man) is no different. (And of course, recent Hollywood culture re-inforces this view!). But as I sat at my computer yesterday evening, I began to feel something weird. A rip in the fabric of the Matrix. A tear at the edge of reality.

It was often thought that "witches" were in league with the devil. Now it is known, that they were simply of a different religion. And one the Romans had to re-cast as "evil" in order to justify an invasion of these "backward" people, and the introduction of their form of politics and religion.

It is from this idea - the beginning of the Pagan calendar, from which the concept of April fools comes. This was the start of the Pagan calendar. And - to promote social and political change - The Romans would openly mock the Pagans that they were fools for celebrating the wrong "start of the year". The idea being that peer pressure would - in the end - win out.

Then I noticed how in the only pictures we have of the "wicker man" that his depiction always featured a human head. Not a straw one. Like here (http://gate.cia.edu/cbergengren/arthist ... ge49sm.jpg), or here (http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefmedia ... 28498A.jpg).

It couldn't really be a giants head could it?

Then I realized who documented all of this - the Roman Empire! And - given they were at war with us at that time - one has to question it's authenticity. Was this just visual propaganda? Did the people drawn, and the giants head emphasise a "human sacrifice", when - in actual fact - it could have been something else? Animals or crops perhaps?

If humans were burnt, how were they kept inside, how were they selected without causing conflict from their families and loved ones? None of it seems to make sense, unless something is missing.

Does anyone have any information about the Wicker Man and the practice surrounding the supposed sacrifice?

Would be very greatful to know!

[A-1 (imported)]

"Wicker Man"?

The only thing that I know about is "Wicker Box", witch is what Elmer Fudd wants to do to Paris Hilton...



:-\

A-1

HOW'S THAT FOR TAPPING INTELLECT?:nutsycuck

[Riverwind (imported)]

fraj

There are many books on the subject of the Pagan, Wiccan religon. I would suggest a used book store or do a surch on magick. You might try a couple books that I have read, "The Magus" by Francis Barrett, first printed in 1801 in London. This book is the complete system of occult philosophy or the modern name called Wicca. Next "Witta" an Irish Pagan Tradition by Edain McCoy. Last would be "The Golden Dawn" by Israel Regardie. Each of these books talk about the teachings and rights of the pagan religion. I dont remember reading anything about what you are looking for in them but I would bet that they may send you in the right direction.

For those of you reading and wondering, in some parts of the world its called Wicca, in others its called Witta, both are correct and are for the most part the same and yes its Magick with the "k".

Good luck,

River

[Uncle Flo (imported)]

My resident ex-Wiccan says that human sacrifice is not part of that tradition. She belives that the wicker man is symbolic of human sacrifice and left over from older traditions that probably pre-date Roman occupation of Britian. Then again, there is no consenus about the origin of the Bog Men so it's pretty much an open question as to who was doing what and to whom. --FLO--

[Blaise (imported)]

As usual, I respond slightly off topic. I loved the old Wickerman movie. I have tried to avoid any appointments with the Wickerman.

[thefraj (imported)]

As usual, I respond slightly off topic. I loved the old Wickerman movie. I have tried to avoid any appointments with the Wickerman.

No worries! To be honest, that's what started me thinking about the historical Wicker Man, and who it was used for and why. Never seen the original, but the remake is pretty awesome!

She belives that the wicker man is symbolic of human sacrifice and left over from older traditions that probably pre-date Roman occupation of Britian.

I agree, and my gut tells me, this 'not burning of humans' was true back then also. We are led to believe that such burnings were supposed to bring better crops next year. Would it not make more sense that crops and (perhaps livestock?) were burnt instead?

The 'burning humans' aspect, sounds to me like the same brand of propaganda, that typecasts Pagans and Wiccans as green old hags who stir couldrons and eat children.

The exact opposite of the reality, which was the celebration of fertility and the use of couldrons for medicines, herbal healings and so on.

I just remember being horrified when we were taught about the 'Wicker Man' in history class. I used to be such a good student, but if I were the Roger I am now, I would probably have quickly got into an argument with the teacher about 'questioning the authuenticity of what we were being force-fed.' I could see myself getting thrown out of many classes

[Riverwind (imported)]

Yes fraj,

I think we all would get booted if we went back today. For one thing we would force the teacher to teach which they have not done in years.

oh well,

Pagan's rule,

River

[SplitDik (imported)]

The old Wicker Man movie is really great -- I love movies that don't turn out well for the main character, and having a whole society happily working against you is an interesting type of horror (probably what those that are wrongfully convicted of crimes must feel).

Anyway, yes you must look at all historical references with the awareness that those that recorded the accounts may have had agendas or viewpoints that distorted their reporting.

The idea of sacrificing animals though is very strong in many cultures -- just look how many times it is mentioned in Old Testament! It is quite conceivable that wicker cages would be used to sacrifice animals.

Human sacrifice is a lot rarer, and mostly was associated with large social organizations -- it is pretty hard to sacrifice someone you know well, but much easier when in a large society such as the Aztecs, and even easier if you mostly sacrifice enemies. Because of this, I doubt that small pagan groups would practice human sacrifice.

Also keep in mind that modern "pagans" don't know that much more about historical pagans -- modern pagans have their own bias which is that paganism is supposed to be all about earth love and such. I think though it probably did have a fair amount of superstition and heavy ritualism that could have led to some questionable practices.

[Riverwind (imported)]

The old Wicker Man movie is really great -- I love movies that don't turn out well for the main character, and having a whole society happily working against you is an interesting type of horror (probably what those that are wrongfully convicted of crimes must feel).

Anyway, yes you must look at all historical references with the awareness that those that recorded the accounts may have had agendas or viewpoints that distorted their reporting.

The idea of sacrificing animals though is very strong in many cultures -- just look how many times it is mentioned in Old Testament! It is quite conceivable that wicker cages would be used to sacrifice animals.

Human sacrifice is a lot rarer, and mostly was associated with large social organizations -- it is pretty hard to sacrifice someone you know well, but much easier when in a large society such as the Aztecs, and even easier if you mostly sacrifice enemies. Because of this, I doubt that small pagan groups would practice human sacrifice.

Also keep in mind that modern "pagans" don't know that much more about historical pagans -- modern pagans have their own bias which is that paganism is supposed to be all about earth love and such. I think though it probably did have a fair amount of superstition and heavy ritualism that could have led to some questionable practices.

I am sure you are right but I don't think they burned people at the stake for being a witch.

River

[thefraj (imported)]

If I may try and illustrate with a similar example. Has anyone here actually gone to a dictionary to look up the definition 'pagan'?

Definitions:

dictionary.reference.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pagan&x=0&y=0)

one if a people or community observing a polytheistic religion, as the ancient Romans and Greeks.

an irreligious or hedonistic person.a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim.

An Irreligious or hedonistic person

Definitions from Mirriam-Webster (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/pagan)

HEATHEN 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)

one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person

MSN Encarta (http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/pagan.html)

an offensive term that deliberately insults somebody who does not acknowledge the God of the Bible, Torah, or Koran

It's bizarre isn't it? If we were to trust our senses implicitly, we are being told that Paganism has nothing to do with belief or religion, but rather NON-belief (you would never define Christian as a non-Muslim, non-Jew and non-Pagan!)

And most the other definitions are references to being either 'hedonistic' (Godless and in persuit of pleasure only!) or being in some way heretical (contradictory to the (Christian) God)

My point is, the true meaning of this word has been reclaimed (gradually) but traces of a religious-fascist past still remain in the echos of history and alternate entries in the dictionary that are still present to this day.

I just found myself wondering if the same could be true of the Wicker Man.