Questions from a younger male

[Brandon86 (imported)]

Can the abortion discussion, or move to the Political Forum, please. That's not the topic of this thread.

Thank you.

Of course, my apologies for having engaged in it.

[Brandon86 (imported)]

My apologies to everyone here, I can get too defensive sometimes and I am sorry. I hope no one thinks less of me and now that I am a bit more calm, I think I'd like to stay[quote

="Brandon86 [quote="Brandon86 (imported)" time=

1152686340]
(imported)" time=1152686040]
. Tha
[/quote]
nks to everyone.

Peace and Blessings,

Brandon
[/quote]

[kristoff]

My apologies to everyone here, I can get too defensive sometimes and I am sorry. I hope no one thinks less of me and now that I am a bit more calm, I think I'd like to stay[quote

="Br

andon86 [quote="Brandon86 (imported)" time=1

152686340]
(imported)" time=1152686040]
. Tha
[/quote]
nks to everyone.

Peace and Blessings,

Brandon
[/quote]


Your welcome to stay.

K

[A-1 (imported)]

Yes, Brandon86,

Please do stay.

I do not think that it is necessary for you to leave. Let us leave the subject of abortion now and discuss whyi you believe that castration is what a good Catholic must do to remain celebate.

Thank you...

A-1

[Brandon86 (imported)]

Yes, Brandon86,

Please do stay.

I do not think that it is necessary for you to leave. Let us leave the subject of abortion now and discuss whyi you believe that castration is what a good Catholic must do to remain celebate.

Thank you...

A-1

I'm not sure that I think it is what every good Catholic should do to remain celibate. There are, of course, other options. But to refer back to Matthew 19:12, I'll highlight the area that I would like to make my point with

: For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it." No

te it says the one who can accept it should. Looking over my own personal desires, I find that I feel castration is the right choice for me. Maybe it is a personal, but non-fetish, desire. I feel that Matthew 19:12 states the reason why I have this personal desire. In the Church, we believe that God sends proddings into your heart to help you decide His calling in your life. After much thought, much prayer, and a great deal of consideration of Matthew 19:12 and Church history on castration, I feel it is the right choice for me, not just to remain celibate but as the means with which I can most enjoy life. Of course, since I have not been castrated yet, I don't know for certain. It's like a calling for the priesthood, one can not be sure of the calling until the moment the bishop lays his hands on your head and ordains you. In this case, however, I won't have to wait until it's too late to turn back. I can give chemical castration a long try first. At least 12 months, but probably longer. From what I can find on here, some of the eunuchs here used chemical castration for 2, 3, or more years. So maybe 18 to 24 months would be a better trial r

un and I would welcome people's

comments on that. Thanks.

Peace and Blessings,

Brandon

[Slammr (imported)]

My apologies to everyone here, I can get too defensive sometimes and I am sorry. I hope no one thinks less of me and now that I am

a bit more calm, I think I'd like to stay[quote[

quote="Slammr (imported)" time=1152694320]
="Br

andon86 [quote="Brandon86 (imported)" time=1
[/quote]
152686340]
(imported)" time=1152686040]
. Tha
[/quote]
nks to everyone.

Peace and Blessings,

Brandon
[/quote]


And as I've already told Brandon in a personal message, I'd like for him to stay, and if I've misunderstood his previous post, the one leading to my long diatribe, I apologize.

[A-1 (imported)]

I'm not sure that I think it is what every good Catholic should do to remain celibate. There are, of course, other options. But to refer back to Matthew 19:12, I'll highlight the area that I would like to make my point with

: For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. Th

e one who can accept this should accept it." No

te it says the one who can accept it should. Looking over my own personal desires, I

find that I feel castration is the right choice for me.

One thing that YOU must consider is that YOU are taking a bit of scripture out of context.

First, let us look at the Bible. In general, let's look at the New Testament and the 4 gospels that describe Jesus Christ's ministery, life and death. In particular, those Gospels are Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

The contextual description given in these 4 gospels occurs toward the beginning of A.D. 33 which was the last year of Jesus' life and minstery. Jesus has departed Galilee and is going along the coasts of Judea beyond Jordan slowly making his way to Jerusalem and his crucifixion.

Connect each gospel as a description of Jesus' life and ministry and it is possible to look at each gospel concurrently from a chronological standpoint. This is perhaps inaccurate from a context of taking each gospel on its own, but it offers perspective of Jesus' message, what it concerned and to whom it was intened.

Therefore, Chapter 19 of Matthew, Chapter 9-10 of Mark, Chapter 10 of Luke and Chapter 10 and 11 of John all describe the same chronological time in Christ's ministry.

I am looking at a Schofield study bible, which is an annoted King James Version. Although these bibles are written in old english grammar, thery are not as hard to understand as we have been convinced by those who like to use a "modernized" version. This "modern version" trick is the same as those Catholic authorities of times past who forbid laymen to read the holy scriptures and kept them in Latin. People in those days were forced to do as they were told. The same mind-set was seen when plantation owners forbid black slaves to learn to read in pre-Civil War America, for example.

O.K., The only place where we find the particular description of Christ's teachings that you are basing your need for castration on is in Chapter 19 of the gospel according to St. Matthew. In this chapter the Pharasees come to Jesus "tempting him" (Matt.19-3) and quizzing him about marriage, divorce and adultry.

Partially quoting, they ask him if "...Is lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?" (Matt. 19-3)

Jesus lectures them and concludes by saying "...What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder." (Matt.19-6)

The Pharasees then ask him, "...Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement and to put her away?"(Matt.19-7)

Jesus said, "...because of the hardness of your hearts..."(Matt.19-8)

He then says that whoever divorces and marries another or whoever marries a divorcee commits adultery, "....except it be for fornication..."(Matt.19-9)

Matt, Ch 19, Vs. 10 "His disciples say to him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry."

Matt, Ch 19 vs 11 "But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

Matt, Ch 19 vs 12 "For there are some eunuchs, which were born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him recieve it."

After this verse, the scene changes and so does the subject.

Now, Brandon86, we see that the scripture that you base your need for castration upon was stated by Jesus Christ to as an alternative to marrying after divorce and committing adultery. If one leaves their wife and divorces her for a reason other than adultery, then they should remain celebate according to Christ's teaching. This is what was mean as "...made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake..." Even then Jesus acknowledges that not all can recieve this saying. Not all men can abstain from sex. Christ knew it and you, in your hear of hearts, know it to be true also.

If you have yourself castrated to avoid relationships, sex, adultery or whatever, you are being harder on your self and expecting more of yourself than Jesus Christ expects of you.

If you take a vow of celebacy as good Catholics have done for years, you make your self a eunuch for the kindom of heaven's sake. Taking a vow of celebacy does not imply castration. You are expected to remain celebate without castration, as a sacrifice of the flesh, just as Jesus Christ sacrificed his flesh for all of our sins.

Bottom line,.

You can in no way blame your need for castration on Jesus Christ's teachings. This need is not generated by the Holy Spirit or by the Holy Ghost. You are generating this need out of your own spiritual weakness and pre-conviction feelings that it will not be possible for you to avoid adultery. However, you have not been tempted with true adultery yet, and onanism does not count here, unless you consider adultery in your heart as Jimmy Carter has stated that he has experienced. Although Christ sees no difference between true adultery and adultery in your heart, man's pride (GET that? P-R-I-D-E, differentiates between committing adultery and dreaming about committing adultery.)

My dear young man, is it possible that you are considering castration as a result of your own P-R-I-D-E?

Do you not know that PRIDE is the original sin? Satan's pride is why he is a fallen angel.

Please be careful here what you attempt to base your need for castration upon.

You need to find a nice girl, get married, raise rug rats and attempt to live as God and Jesus Christ intended you to live. You don't need castration before you attempt to be human and live life a little.

A-1

[Brandon86 (imported)]

One thing that YOU must consider is that YOU are taking a bit of scripture out of context.

First, let us look at the Bible. In general, let's look at the New Testament and the 4 gospels that describe Jesus Christ's ministery, life and death. In particular, those Gospels are Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

The contextual description given in these 4 gospels occurs toward the beginning of A.D. 33 which was the last year of Jesus' life and minstery. Jesus has departed Galilee and is going along the coasts of Judea beyond Jordan slowly making his way to Jerusalem and his crucifixion.

Connect each gospel as a description of Jesus' life and ministry and it is possible to look at each gospel concurrently from a chronological standpoint. This is perhaps inaccurate from a context of taking each gospel on its own, but it offers perspective of Jesus' message, what it concerned and to whom it was intened.

Therefore, Chapter 19 of Matthew, Chapter 9-10 of Mark, Chapter 10 of Luke and Chapter 10 and 11 of John all describe the same chronological time in Christ's ministry.

I am looking at a Schofield study bible, which is an annoted King James Version. Although these bibles are written in old english grammar, thery are not as hard to understand as we have been convinced by those who like to use a "modernized" version. This "modern version" trick is the same as those Catholic authorities of times past who forbid laymen to read the holy scriptures and kept them in Latin. People in those days were forced to do as they were told. The same mind-set was seen when plantation owners forbid black slaves to learn to read in pre-Civil War America, for example.

O.K., The only place where we find the particular description of Christ's teachings that you are basing your need for castration on is in Chapter 19 of the gospel according to St. Matthew. In this chapter the Pharasees come to Jesus "tempting him" (Matt.19-3) and quizzing him about marriage, divorce and adultry.

Partially quoting, they ask him if "...Is lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?" (Matt. 19-3)

Jesus lectures them and concludes by saying "...What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder." (Matt.19-6)

The Pharasees then ask him, "...Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement and to put her away?"(Matt.19-7)

Jesus said, "...because of the hardness of your hearts..."(Matt.19-8)

He then says that whoever divorces and marries another or whoever marries a divorcee commits adultery, "....except it be for fornication..."(Matt.19-9)

Matt, Ch 19, Vs. 10 "His disciples say to him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry."

Matt, Ch 19 vs 11 "But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

Matt, Ch 19 vs 12 "For there are some eunuchs, which were born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him recieve it."

After this verse, the scene changes and so does the subject.

Now, Brandon86, we see that the scripture that you base your need for castration upon was stated by Jesus Christ to as an alternative to marrying after divorce and committing adultery. If one leaves their wife and divorces her for a reason other than adultery, then they should remain celebate according to Christ's teaching. This is what was mean as "...made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake..." Even then Jesus acknowledges that not all can recieve this saying. Not all men can abstain from sex. Christ knew it and you, in your hear of hearts, know it to be true also.

If you have yourself castrated to avoid relationships, sex, adultery or whatever, you are being harder on your self and expecting more of yourself than Jesus Christ expects of you.

If you take a vow of celebacy as good Catholics have done for years, you make your self a eunuch for the kindom of heaven's sake. Taking a vow of celebacy does not imply castration. You are expected to remain celebate without castration, as a sacrifice of the flesh, just as Jesus Christ sacrificed his flesh for all of our sins.

Bottom line,.

You can in no way blame your need for castration on Jesus Christ's teachings. This need is not generated by the Holy Spirit or by the Holy Ghost. You are generating this need out of your own spiritual weakness and pre-conviction feelings that it will not be possible for you to avoid adultery. However, you have not been tempted with true adultery yet, and onanism does not count here, unless you consider adultery in your heart as Jimmy Carter has stated that he has experienced. Although Christ sees no difference between true adultery and adultery in your heart, man's pride (GET that? P-R-I-D-E, differentiates between committing adultery and dreaming about committing adultery.)

My dear young man, is it possible that you are considering castration as a result of your own P-R-I-D-E?

Do you not know that PRIDE is the original sin? Satan's pride is why he is a fallen angel.

Please be careful here what you attempt to base your need for castration upon.

You need to find a nice girl, get married, raise rug rats and attempt to live as God and Jesus Christ intended you to live. You don't need castration before you attempt to be human and live life a little.

A-1

You do make some good points in your post. However, I never "blamed" my need for castration on Jesus. The thing is, as a Catholic I place a great deal of stock on tradition and I don't see how the early Church could fall away from Christ's meaning so quickly on the matters of castration. It's been done by Christians since shortly after Christ made His sacrifice for us. I could be wrong. If I am, God will guide me away from it, as He has always guided us away from faulty tradition and toward to Sacred Tradition . This is why I will try chemical castration first. Are you worried I won't or something? I can assure you, I will. If it is indeed not God's will for me, then I will know after giving the chemical route a try first. Or perhaps, if indeed I need to meet a nice girl, God will send her to me long before I even attempt the chemical, showing me His way. That's how I see it.

Of course, I am not sure how opting for castration would be a result of pride. If indeed I desire castration for the reasons you think (avoiding sexual sins), I would think that seeking castration is an act of humility, placing God before my own desires.

I do appreciate your concern. I'm am curious, though, since you feel religious beliefs aren't a valid reason for castration, what do you think is?

Keep the posts and criticism coming, it is really helping me to thoroughly consider all my reasons.

Peace and Blessings,

Brandon

[kristoff]

I was disappointed not to see your name on the list of the people attending the West Coast meeting. I was hoping to meet you.

Can't afford it. I spent all my play money fixing the apartment my last tenant upstairs trashed. Had to put in a new bathroom, carpet, etc etc. $4K+ Ouch.

[Eunuchist (imported)]

A-1,

One thing that YOU must consider is that YOU are taking a bit of scripture out of context.

Actually, it really seems that you did wrench a few passages here and there out of their authentic meaning. Now, I would like to use the opportunity and state that I am not a Christian by faith - my reasons for my castration were largely based on a generally physical and spiritual pretext - however, I still strongly disagree with your quite baseless and biased attacks against (beliefs of) someone who clearly:

a) Stated that he is additionally interested in castration on personal, non-religious grounds, so is likely to proceed anyway, and;

b) Uses a set of scriptures that were interpreted the same way by numerous influential early and late Church fathers and Christian followers (and what I believe to be Jesus himself, if the scriptures indeed were based on his life), for personal comfort and reassurance.

I would like to quote an alternate observation, nicely put forth by GlendaJ elsewhere on this forum, wich I wholeheartedly agree with and would like to pose as a starting point:

Lets first of all look at Matt 19:12, the words of Jesus:

"For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made so by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves so for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven."

Some try and interpret this as taking "eunuch" as one who chooses an unmarried life. That is not what the verse says. If you read it in Greek, it says the same thing as in English. A eunuch is a man a) born without testicles, or b) a man who has had them removed or at least made non-functional. Back in those days you had to cut them off. Today you can achieve the same result chemically, but the idea is the same. Jesus then adds,

"Let anyone accept this who can."

In short, if it is your cup of tea, it is okay with Jesus. Plain and simple.

It is interesting to note that the same word "eunuch" is used for the first non-Hebrew Christian in the Acts. Besides, there were already many words that could perfectly have described "virginity" and "celibacy" without reffering to eunuchs: "For there are virgins..", "For there are those free of adultery..", "For there are celibates..", "For there are non-married.." etc. Instead, a word that is clearly associated with eunuchs is used, and is translated into many languages with this same association. For instance, in Scandinavian versions the word "gilding" is used, ie. a gelding - a word that is always associated with castration, German - "Verschnittene" (ie. the one who is cut), etc. There are many passages in the bible that particularly describes virgins and celibates, with no reference to eunuchs. So there can be no doubt that eunuchs are the ones we are talking about here. In fact, this makes perfect sense:

1. Born eunuchs. Some people are born with conditions that result in hereditary hypogonadism (Kallman's, Klinefelter's).

2. Made eunuchs of men. This may concern those eunuchs initially castrated for worldly purposes, such as harem guards and goverment officials, but who eventually turned their condition to an advantage, in front of Christ, by baptizing and or/ converting to the Christian faith. Ex.: The first Christian Ethiopean eunuch, who served materialistic purposes but was saved in the Holy Spirit by baptism. Unlike many other personages in the scriptures, the eunuch accepted the Christian faith without a single objection.

3. Made eunuchs themsevles. This applies to those who undergo castration (usually with help of a surgeon) exclusively for spiritual purposes, ie. those already baptized.

Now, Brandon86, we see that the scripture that you base your need for castration upon was stated by Jesus Christ to as an alternative to marrying after divorce and committing adultery. If one leaves their wife and divorces her for a reason other than adultery, then they should remain celebate according to Christ's teaching.

It seems like a highly unlikely explanation. How about this: "You pharisees are debating and digressing into such worldly things as marriage and sex, but I tell you: faithful eunuchs and virgins are fully worthy of the Kingdom of Heaven. Because such materialistic and inferior pleasures of this world eventually passes; but the Kingdom of Heaven never passes, and this should ultimately be the most important thing for any man".

Especially in view of:

Luke 29: "For the time will come when you will say, `Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!"

Rev.14: "and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes."

This need is not generated by the Holy Spirit or by the Holy Ghost.

A-1: Since when do you know wich needs are generated by the Holy Ghost, and wich are not??

You need to find a nice girl, get married, raise rug rats and attempt to live as God and Jesus Christ intended you to live.

This is the exact opposite of what Jesus teached. It is clear from the 4 gospels that marriage, sex and kids no longer were considered important. It had no meaning for eternal salvation, in fact, it was too often seen as directly detrimental to it. It is obvious that the 4 gospels have a very ascetic tone. That's exactly why Jesus rejected even the man who wanted to bury his parents first. Because for those to "whom it is given", to those who truly recieved the call, they should no longer be concerned with things like marriage, procreation, and earthly wealth. Paul, who seemed attempting to soften the "virginity/eunuch message" a bit, giving his permission to marry (out of "human weakness"), nevertheless stated that it would be better, for any men, to be like him and like Jesus (ie. unmarried celibate, possibly a virgin, or even a eunuch), and "never touch a woman". Of course, with time, various Church leaders (out of worldly greed?) became concerned about this sort of asceticism in fear of severily declining births and thereby influence of Christian followers, and especially in view of the willingness of the pagan Roman emperors to adopt the Christian doctrine in case certain "neccessary adjustments" were made (esp. concerning the family institution an banning of the Castration/Abstinence sects), - eventually may have corrupted some parts of this original message, for a mere "Kingdom of this World".

Besides, there does not seem to be any logical purpose to further procreation when, in fact, our world is already suffering from horrible overpopulation* , the consequences of wich have no end in sight (seems like sex and procreation is the direct cause of about 90% of all major threats facing humanity today..)

* (these are only introductory and in no particular order of importance)

http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... ences.html

http://www.nocompromise.org/features/4overpop.html

BTW, Why are the people, and I mean those who seem serious and reasonable about their decisions, opting for castration only always appear to be assaulted around these parts by certain individuals? I mean, had he been a young transsexual seeking castration, all he would recieve would be worshipping praise and encouragement. "Are you sure you WANT to be a female?", "Listen chap - "I am a woman" etc, what nonsense. What you really need is.. etc etc.".A young homosexual - great. A fetishist? OK! But noooo, MtE's are not gonna get away that easily, right??