Changes Following Orchiectomy

[An Onymus (imported)]

This is a question that came up a while ago. I didn't pursue it, but perhaps someone who has done some research, could answer it.

The question is, does the body increase production of certain hormones or similar substances, after the testes are excised? Of course, the levels of hormones produced by the testes are reduced or eliminated by orchiectomy, but, particularly when you consider the phenomenon of hot flashes, it seems possible that the levels of other hormones produced within the endocrine system, are increased, or perhaps that new hormones are produced. I've never read anything to that effect, but it seems possible. Perhaps someone who has done research on the matter, has read something about it.

If there is indeed an increase in certain hormones or other secretions in the body, after the testes are gone, that would, it seems to me, tend to strengthen the idea that eunuchs belong to a third gender. The added production of hormones or other substances could be considered characteristic of that third gender. And that would, to some degree, undermine the tendency of society to classify everyone into the two most common genders, male and female, and to insist that every individual conform to behavioral, dress, and other standards for one of those genders.

I realize that gender identity is derived from a number of sources, and eunuchs can still be considered to belong to a third gender, even if there is no set of hormonal properties which produce gender characteristics for them. But, as mentioned above, if there is some biological basis for a distinct third gender, that would make the perception of eunuchs as a third gender, easier to assert to people who are reluctant to accept the notion that there is a gender identity other than male and female.

[koku (imported)]

From everything I've read (which is admittedly not much on this specific matter) a post orchiectomy male ends up chemically similar to a post-menopausal female.

[erikboy (imported)]

Basically what happens after orchiectimy is your organism trying to balance your testosterone levels.

testosterone levels are controlled by a gland in brain (I don't remember the exact name) which reacts to low or high testosterone levels via Gonadotropin ( a hormone that activates testosterone production in testicles)

This hormone affects also glands on your kidney that starts to produce more estrogen, testosterone and adrenaline.

This activation happens several times a day. As there is no testicles to respond with testosterone production and glands on kidneys are not capable on producing such amount of testosterone, gonadotropine levels go abnormally high in futile attempt to make missing testicles to produce more testosterone.

Abnormally high levels of gonadotropin also cause a release of adrenalin from your glands on kidneys. As a side effect the release of unneccessary adrenalin causes phenomena known as 'hot flash'.

[may172001 (imported)]

What else happens?

What affects does a person go through then after?

Is it a whole lot diffrent not having the testicles?

[Robby (imported)]

...

If there is indeed an increase in certain hormones or other secretions in the body, after the testes are gone, that would, it seems to me, tend to strengthen the idea that eunuchs belong to a third gender. The added production of hormones or other substances could be considered characteristic of that third gender. And that would, to some degree, undermine the tendency of society to classify everyone into the two most common genders, male and female, and to insist that every individual conform to behavioral, dress, and other standards for one of those genders.

I realize that gender identity is derived from a number of sources, and eunuchs can still be considered to belong to a third gender, even if there is no set of hormonal properties which produce gender characteristics for them. But, as mentioned above, if there is some biological basis for a distinct third gender, that would make the perception of eunuchs as a third gender, easier to assert to people who are reluctant to accept the notion that there is a gender identity other than male and female.

Interesting concept, a third gender. For this discussion, lets consider the possibility of a third gender. Are we speaking only of Eunuchs in the population of a third gender? Or are others inclusive of this order?

Currently, civilized society considers gender in terms of Male and Female. DNA proves Male or Female scientifically. Legally, we have Male and Female based on genitalia. In defining a third gender, are we using different criteria for our sake or for society in general? To define a third gender, what is the basis for criteria?

I myself like the present gender definition; Male and Female. To say someone who surgically alters their body is of a third gender, would open the definition of gender to unlimited categories. Is it necessary to have more than 2 genders defined? Are altered states in need of gender identity? Is society open for additional gender categories?

You be the judge. Contribute your thoughts...

[mrt (imported)]

From everything I've read (which is admittedly not much on this specific matter) a post orchiectomy male ends up chemically similar to a post-menopausal female.

Forgive me for saying it but I don't agree. A male who goes through Andropause (Male Menopause) or has Hypogonadism (Testes that stop working) is not a post-menopausal female. We have similar things going on in our life changes but the end result is just not the same even with the physical similarities.

What interests me more is the male who has Hypogonadism (or has completed Andropause/viropause) and goes on HRT thus reversing the situation. Ditto for females with low or not hormones. Its a weird and wonderful world we are moving into.

[thefraj (imported)]

Sorry to hear you've had a rough time, Huevon :: I can only imagine how difficult it can be for someone who had no choice about surgery. Persevere with your doctor, once you reach the level of testosterone you're body is used to you'll feel like a whole new person

Currently, civilized society considers gender in terms of Male and Female. DNA proves Male or Female scientifically. Legally, we have Male and Female based on genitalia. In defining a third gender, are we using different criteria for our sake or for society in general? To define a third gender, what is the basis for criteria?

I'm not so sure it's that simply, Robby. What about intersex conditions? Hypogonadism? And why some males have more or less testosterone than others?

I don't believe there is such thing as gender in a physical sense.... It's like when you walk into McDonalds, and see the picture of a "perfect" hamburger on the menu. Obviously hamburgers exist, as does gender, but you will never get one as perfectly as the one you were led to believe because it was "idealized". Some people get something completely different from what they ordered altogether.

As with children playing with He-man and Barbie, both are idealised views of male and female, but in reality everyone will lie somewhere along a line that has certain attributes of one or the other (or perhaps some of both).

I personally think it's through this clearly false notion that there are only two genders that provoked the need for article 302.6 of the DSM-IV manual (gender identity disorders that do not fit neatly into being "one" or the "other").

To say someone who surgically alters their body is of a third gender, would open the definition of gender to unlimited categories.

It would and there are. And I feel this is the correct way to think of gender. Everyone is different, everyone is unique in one way or another. (like hamburgers??)

But I believe it's not the surgery that makes someone a different gender, rather they are another gender, and simply have surgery to have the body that reflects the person they are inside. Exactly like being a transsexual in that sense I suppose.

It's not the surgery that makes the woman, that person will already know it through and through, and that the surgery simply helps re-enforce that and lead a better quality of life.

But it all depends how much you wish to simplify it. You could easily argue there is only one gender, on the grounds that both come from the same tissue, and have the same organs (although with hormonal influences they develop differently), and this is why I make the claim of "infinite" genders, because everyone has different levels of hormones and characteristics, some of which will play into societies' expectations, some of which won't.

It is possible to hide behind the misconception that there are only two genetic possibility XY and XX, but then how would someone with that mindset explain Klinefelter's Syndrome? Or Turner's Syndrome? Or intersex conditions in general?

_______________

Sorry to sound so condescending. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that "male" and "female" are just that - words. Labels ... generalizations of ideal states.

And that - other labels ("third sex", "transsexual", "gay", "Republican", "Wednesday" or whatever!) is perfectly valid, so long as there are plenty of people who identify with it and agree to use it to refer loosely to concepts (that may not always be in ideal form).

~Rog

[tugon (imported)]

I agree with thefraj. I have known for a long time what was right for me. I have had two stages in my life pre and post eunuch. Most of the world looks at me and classifies me as male. I of course know they are wrong. Sure it is always easy and comfortable to have as few classifications as possible in which to place people. If I am asked my gender by a survey or job interview I answer male for expediency sake. My close friends and certainly my mate knows and accepts me as a eunuch. Regardless of my physical appearence I knew I did not fit into either gender. Now I no longer feel an outcast because I know I am a member of the third gender. Maybe I should start checkmarking the space between male and female boxes on gender questions.

[thefraj (imported)]

Thanks so much Tugon I know these are views that not everyone will hold. And it's weird you should mention tick boxes, I always felt weird filling them in too! (even before the cut!) It was something odd, not quite uncomfortable - but almost like I was deceiving someone. Like I was putting what was expected of me, not what I really felt - not that I minded terribly. The best way I can describe it is like an actor, who's happy assuming an identity for others pleasure, not necessarily for his own.

At the time I just assumed it was because I had a very low self-esteem and was maybe doubting my adequacy in that way. I don't know. You saying that has made me realise (in retrospect!) that this was indeed another piece of the jigsaw of my life. Thanks you!!

Hehe these days I just tend to giggle and put male, if that's the only option (conciously aware now that I really >am< decieving someone!). And just as you said, it's very much a game of two halves. Before the orchiectomy I never really considered any part of my life different from "male". I'd never really thought about it, all I could "see" was that I wanted those parts gone, and couldn't explain why.

Thanks!

~Rog

[An Onymus (imported)]

I don't know that it actually has any application here, but, according to what I have read, there is apparently no "natural" limitation of sexuality to two sexes. Research has, I guess, shown that there are some simple organisms that have more than one sex, and a few have more than four sexes. I'm not an expert in that area, but you might be able to find some information on it via web searches. There is no obvious reason why there should be only two sexes, although, of course, a sexual reproduction process in which there are two sexes, rather than a number of them, is a simpler one, at least schematically.

Then, of course, some social insects have more than three sex types, although I don't know if, for example, worker bees, are actually considered to represent a third sex as such.