Castrating Boys And Adolescents

[sal.limpone (imported)]

As usual Paolo, well thought out, Direct, to the points, and Brief. Some of the reasons I have long admired you. I also agree that consensual delay seems at this point to be the best choice trill we acquire more information about Minor castration.

[JesusA (imported)]

The question of what to do about gender dysphoria is very real, but the solution(s) is/are incredibly difficult. There clearly is no ideal solution, only better or worse ones. I'm pleased that those responding to this thread are concerned about both the logic and the compassion of finding ways to help.

Delay would certainly be part of anything that I came up with. It's just what else goes with the delay. Counseling and education, of course, but should there be any drug-induced delay of puberty? Should the child go through puberty before being able to make a choice? There are problems BOTH ways.

If it were my child or grandchild, I don't know how I would answer. I hope I never need to find out.

I know enough people with gender dysphoria to know that it is very difficult and painful to deal with.

[YankeeClipper (imported)]

No, no, and NO. There is obviously a distubing number of people on here who fantasize about children, particularly chilren who become mutilated/castrated for some reason. That's bad enough. To want to castrate children so they can attain some imagined state of "choirboy" or whatever the hell it is is ever more pathetic and disgusting. I don't even favor allowing youth who may be transsexuals to undergo surgery. In worst case scenario, they should be prescribed anti-androgens to delay the onset of masculinization and nothing more. When you're 18 and had more time to think about it, THEN is the time to start hormones and procede to more irreversible procedures.

I'm probably one of the very few people on here who have actually HAD orchiectomy surgery. It's a tough thing to go through, and the ill prepared can suffer serious after effects. I've known I was transgendered since I was very young, but I waited until 25 to have surgery. Why? To be on the safe side. There are plenty of regret stories out there, and on here. A lot of people regret their surgeries.

All of the mutilation fetishes, pedophilia thinly disguised under a veneer of concern ("if children have unnecessary surgery they won't grow up" ala Michal Jackson) and projecting of sexual fantasies on to minors is the reason I don't come here anymore. I'm not one of those spineless PC types that says "well, anything goes when it comes to sex and it's all relative." It's not. I'm disgusted by some of the stuff people on here imagine. Anyone thinking about children in this way needs help or to be in jail.

Pleae go back and carefully read what I said. I was speaking for myself, and others like myself, wherein we did not desire puberty for OURSELVES, not for anyone else, and certainly not like Michael Jackson. Whatever you believe or know about him, do not imply that the others here that are expressing deeply held feelings are ANYTHING like him. I find that deeply debasing approaching obscene to make that equation. You know NOTHING about me to make such a statement. I did not want puberty, and I do not like its effects now. I can not be castrated now because it would increase the clinical depression that I already suffer from and that was brought on by the START of puberty.

If you did not want castration before puberty, that is fine for you. For Tim, who was very careful and deliberate in his decision, castration before puberty was the correct choice, as it would have been in mine. That decision, by myself and Tim, does not make either one of us wrong as to what was/is appropriate for us.

The friends I speak of are NOT imaginary or fantasy. You can believe it not, I am not going to invest efforts to convince you of this. Unless you have been a Chorister that has a voice like Tim's or had the voice that Jay had and lost, don't presume to speak as though you do, and I find your dimmisveness offensive.

Tim is a 15 year-old lead chorister/lead soprano of a Welsh Cathedral choir that has toured much of Europe and his studies include music history, muxic theory and music analysis, He is active in soccer, rugby, swimming and track. And he is an A student. His decision was his, not mine; I was very careful NOT to attempt to convince him that it was "good" for him, as that if I had and it did not work out well it could destroy our friendship. At the same time, I chose NOT to attempt to dissuade him as I know how much his music means to him.

As it turns out that his testes were not going to mature, and for health reasons they would have been, most likely, excised by the time he was 18 anyway. He was in no danger of losing his voice, but when he elected to be castrated, he was not aware of that. Most choristers are not that fortunate. Most though do not possess a voice on the caliber of Tim's either and there is not much to preserve, not enough to have the boy thinking about castration.

He naturally is shy and guarded about his status, though he still showers with the other boys at school, [the staff and students were told it was due to cancer] and swims naked in practice as do all of the other boys do. It is a Welsh [British] public school so any teasing is strictly reproved. Some of the boys on the choir attend his school so that the other choirboys do know, but again, any teasing is strictly reproved.

Jay was offered castration at 12, arranged through an elder of the choir with a male nurse practitioner. His father refused to approve it, and it was not done. It is Jay's belief that part of his father's reasoning was that then Jay could later sire children, giving him him gandchildren. Well Jay is gay and will not sire children, If he chooses to be a father, he will adopt.

Just after he turned 15, puberty started and his voice quickly started to break. He was never able to move to the men's choir, his voice never returned. He still loves choirs, especially boys' choirs and he has seen many of the best choirs across Europe. He relationship with his father remains cold and stiff. Jay lost his voice and his father lost him.

Oh - yes i was in a boys' choir, and, no, my voice was nothing like Tim's is. That is not why I wanted to be castrated. I simply wanted to remain a boy [lacking testes] and saw nothing that adulthood would give me that I wanted or needed. Nothing since that time has disproven that. Other things proved that my interests were correct. You were castrrated as an adult and do not have the same experience that a castrated boy has. The differences are enormous, starting with osteoporosis and depression, the lack of those being present in a castrated boy, at least the ones I know [some whom are above 18, but they are and always will be "boys"].

You waited until you were 25 and now suffer from the exact problems that boys castrated before puberty avoid. What research that is available shows that M-to-F TG's given androgen blockers PRIOR to puberty make the transition far more easily that those not placed on them. It stands to reason, since this prevents the masculinization of the body and mind that puberty causes in a boy. Would your own transition had have been as difficult if you been on them from the Tanner stage 2 until youre were 25? Until you clearly, rationally, and definitvely answer that, do NOT deny that option to other TG children.

I have 3 TG post-op female friends, and, for them, being a boy was not nearly as traumatic as going

through puberty and adolescence

was. They are unanimous in wishing that that stage and the masculine results could have been avoided. Or are they Micheal Jackson pretenders too?

I have also noticed, contrary to your statement, that there has been little support for out outright castration, but that for those boys for whom delaying puberty is appropriate, that it [delaying puberty] should be available. That strikes me a sensible approach, providing what amounts to a reversible castration. You can not make it possible otherwise for a boy that wants wants to remain a boy to become old enough [15? my opinion, certainly for Tim 15 has proven to be old enough, for others, 60 is not mature enough] to get castrated; you cannot reverse puberty. Yet you posit that that boys must become men before they can decide to remain boys. That is exactly what I protest.

Given your diatribe, I do not consider that you show that you have the right to speak for anyone else. But that is precisele my original point, that only the person living in that body has that right to make that determination.

YC

[A-1 (imported)]

question...

YankeeClipper says that...

My friend that was castrated this past winter at 15, now remains lead chorister and lead soprano in his Welsh Cathedral choir and is comfortable with his decision. He was disappointed that he can no longer masturbate [he wishes he had not learned how so that he wouldn't now miss it] but as he has put it, he "sing with balls." His voice continues to develop more brilliance and gain power while his love of choral/baroque/classical music continues to grow. [It is likely that he would have been castrated at some point since it turns out he testes were not going to develop, but that was not known then. It is why he was still pre-pubescent at 15.]

If his balls were not working then why could he masturbate when he had them but not masturbate after he was castrated?

It seems that if they were not working and not going to develop in the first place that castration should have had no effect on his ability to masturbate.

Jesus, I am not convinced that you have throught through the connotations castration before puberty for the ambiguously gendered. If we let Psychiatrists pick out what sex that they think a person should be isn't that in principle just as bad letting other doctors (not psychiatrists) decide?

I think that Psychologists are better qualified to make such judgments and not Medical Doctors. I contend that Medical Schools do not teach doctors enough to make this sort of decision and that Psychologists are better suited because of the difference in the nature of their disciplines. Better yet, a multi-disciplinary team should make the decision only by unanimous vote. A dissenting member should be able to block the procedure.

The problem of this whole scenerio is that the parents that will let the kid do it generally will not have a kid that needs or wants to. Conversely, kids who want to will have parents that repress them. That is my prediction on this matter.

Also, inquiring minds want to know, Yankee Clipper, were you a regular member here befo

re under the handle Yankee masha or something to that effect?

I can not be castrated now because it would increase the clinical depression that I already

suffer from and that was brought on by the START of puberty.

Y - M, you cannot blame this on depression. Puberty did not cause your depression. Depression is the result of a neuro-transmitter deficit, not puberty. If a doctor or psychologist put this into your head they shoud be not be practicing.

You need to let go of some of your anger. Repressed anger complicates depression and leads to suicidal tendancies in the clinically depressed. Please, get a grip, O.K.? I am worried for your state of mind.

A-1

[curious_guy (imported)]

For a boy to propose or consider castration, it should be an indication of strength of his desire or need. One way to address this is to provide a delayed puberty for boys desiring castration before puberty so that they can be old enough to make the decision themselves. The most direct way is androgen blockers. This way, a boy can discontinue the drugs at any time and allow maturity to commence, if he changes his mind.

Are these drugs administered orally or by injection? How often must they be taken? Do they have significant side effects?

[YankeeClipper (imported)]

Also, inquiring minds want to know, Yankee Clipper, were you a regular member here befo

re under the handle Yankee masha or something to that effect?

No. I have always used this nick.

I can not be castrated now because it wo

uld increase the clinical depression that I already suffer fro

m and that was brought on by the START of puberty.

Correct. A drop in Testosterone levels resulting from castration often cause depression itself. This is the compplication factor. Castration depression would excerbate the clinical depre

ssion. Talk to my phychiatrists, There answer is the same.

You cannot blame this on depression. Puberty did not cause your depression. Depression is the result of a neuro-transmitter deficit, not puberty. If a doctor or psycholog

ist put this into your head they shoud be not be practicing.

That's noy quite what I said. I wrote that clinical depression first occured at the start of puberty. Puberty does not cause clinical depression, that is true; however. and both the psychiatrists and other patients I have disscussed this with, all agree that the changes that occur during puberty is what allows for the start of both Bi-Polar Disorder and clinical depressio

n. That is also my personal experience, particularly with BPD.

You need to let go of some of your anger. Repressed anger complicates depression and leads to suicidal tendancies in the clinically depressed. Pl

ease, get a grip, O.K.? I am worried for your state of mind.

I have been in suicidal depression at times, I rebounded enough to never finally take that step, but I have a deep understanding of those that have. Thank you for your concern, in my case it is not displaced, but I am receiving sufficient proffesional care and medication that suicide is not a present danger. Repressed anger: it was supressed for years, has finally now come out from behind the veil. The anger that is there is not about whether I was castrated or not, but for a childhood of neglect bordering on abuse and a father unwilling to give his son the two things his son wanted more than anything else: his time, and his respect. It is only recently that I have come to understand how corrosive our relationship was. This though is not the venue for this topic. But, thank you.

YC

[YankeeClipper (imported)]

If his balls were not working then why could he masturbate when he had them but not masturbate after he was castrated?

It seems that if they were not working and not going to develop in the first place that castration should have had no effect on his ability to masturbate.

A natural question. He started masturbating at 11. Boys can start to masturbate as young as 6. Two things: One, I expect that even though they would never mature, they were producing some Testosterone, the loss of which caused the loss of erectile function. Two, the loss of erectile function is consistent for all the pre-pubital castrates that I know.

Boys with Klienfelter's Syndrome can often masturbate, but their testes will not mature without HRT. Note though, I am not implying he had Klienfelter's, he did not.

YC

[YankeeClipper (imported)]

Are these drugs administered orally or by injection? How often must they be taken? Do they have significant side effects?

Others here can address that better than I can.

YC

[philip1 (imported)]

for myself castration was on my mind as young as age 5 now that i have become a eunuch I have no regrets save one... I regret that when I first wanted to stop being a boy (age 5) I could have been able to achieve that goal. I have never wavered from this desire/need and I am certain that if I were able to have been castrated at 5 I would not regret it. the point is that there are some that were simply born equipped wrong and when they recognize it is when they recognize it. age is inconcequential it is the certanty that matters.

[Christina (imported)]

No, no, and NO. There is obviously a distubing number of people on here who fantasize about children, particularly chilren who become mutilated/castrated for some reason. That's bad enough. To want to castrate children so they can attain some imagined state of "choirboy" or whatever the hell it is is ever more pathetic and disgusting. I don't even favor allowing youth who may be transsexuals to undergo surgery. In worst case scenario, they should be prescribed anti-androgens to delay the onset of masculinization and nothing more. When you're 18 and had more time to think about it, THEN is the time to start hormones and procede to more irreversible procedures.

I believe this thread was started with the intention NOT to be some sort of fetish or act of perversion. True, it is a delicate subject for some to discuss rationally. I do agree with you that if puberty can be delayed until the person is older, then so much the better. Which brings up the question would the parent/guardian be aware of such desire and allow them a choice in the matter?

I'm probably one of the very few people on here who have actually HAD orchiectomy surgery. It's a tough thing to go through, and the ill prepared can suffer serious after effects. I've known I was transgendered since I was very young, but I waited until 25 to have surgery. Why? To be on the safe side.

I may be a bit bias on this subject because I am also transsexual. I do have some regret for not persueing a transition earlier in life, but I can't change the past.

Here are some quotes of an unpublished biography I am working on. I think that many here can identify with what I have said.

My earliest memory of being "different" started about when I was about 4 years old. I remember vividly the day I was helping mom in the kitchen along with my younger brother. As we were helping, my mom turned to both of us and asks if we were boys or girls. I knew for a long time the answer for me in my heart was a girl, but my brother had blurted out his answer first by saying that he was a boy. At that moment I hesitated and the thought raced through my mind that if he answered he was a boy, and I had parts like him, I should answer the same for fear of being wrong or punished. This was the start of keeping a secret for most of my life.

Now the question is how many boys/adolescents are there out there who could be a candidate for this and are affraid to speak up?

There are plenty of regret stories out there, and on here. A lot of people regret their surgeries.

I do not regret the changes I have gone through and the surgery I've had so far.

All of the mutilation fetishes, pedophilia thinly disguised under a veneer of concern ("if children have unnecessary surgery they won't grow up" ala Michal Jackson) and projecting of sexual fantasies on to minors is the reason I don't come here anymore. I'm not one of those spineless PC types that says "well, anything goes when it comes to sex and it's all relative." It's not. I'm disgusted by some of the stuff people on here imagine. Anyone thinking about children in this way needs help or to be in jail.

True. There are

many topics here I am not in agreement with either. Does that mean someone can't post their opinion even if it goes against my beliefs? I think not. However, there have been a few posts that were just too close to being pediofile in nature.

Jay was offered castration at 12, arranged through an elder of the choir with a male nurse practitioner. His father refused to approve it, and it was not done. It is Jay's belief that part of his father's reasoning was that then Jay could later sire children, giving him him gandchildren. Well Jay is gay and will not sire children, If he ch

ooses to be a father, he will adopt.

Just after he turned 15, puberty started and his voice quickly started to break. He was never able to move to the men's choir, his voice never returned.......Jay lost his voice and his father lost him.

I was also in a boys choir before puberty. Once puberty hit I lost that ability to sing well. In later years I also struggled with the fact of loosing the ability to father a child. I was horrified about the changes puberty brought on.

As I grew older

I still never revealed the fact I wanted to be, or should have been, a girl. By this time I was approaching puberty, which started between

the ages of ten and eleven. This was the hardest time of my life. I hated many things about puberty. My first and most hated thing was the time I had an erection.

The problem of this whole scenerio is that the parents that will let the kid do it generally will not have a kid that needs or wants to.

I offer you ano

ther clip from my biography.

Growing up throughout childhood, I can now look back and see the signals that I was not the typical boy. Although it was never brought to my attention, I wonder now if anyone else saw these signals I was giving.

Delay would certainly be part of anything that I came up wit

h. It's just what else goes with the delay. Counseling and education, of course, but should there be any drug-induced delay of puberty? Should the child go through puberty before being able to make a choice? There are problems BOTH ways.

I believe the best answer to this would be a delay in puberty for both the trangendered as well as non-transgendered. But it would take courage on the part of the young person as well as compassion from the parent/guardian in order to affect these decisions.

It is people like me who endure the discrimination--they can avoided it and I see no reason why they should suffer. A good example is Natta (featured in Annie's page). She was the one that took care of me for several weeks after my SRS. She started estrogen at age 11 and had SRS herself at age 16. I am so jealous!

It seems that the prevention of puberty for TS girls is an optimal idea. Their lives can be so much better than those of us who endure the wrong puberty.

I totally agre with you Kelly. Pehaps in todays society it is an approach that will have many benefits for the younger TS girls.

Many decades ago when I was growing up, gender and sex were one in the same. Of course now we know different. Any talk of sex back then was unheard of.