A suggested age limit for surgical castration?

[Andrew (imported)]

Well, this has certainly been an enlightening thread. I want to thank all who have replied. To get back to square one, the purpose of this thread was to discuss a slight re-write of my "effects of castration".

In light of this thread, here is my SUGGESTED rewrite of two of the items. Again, your comments and input will be welcomed.

@@@



Osteoporosis should be your #2 concern. Your chances of getting this disease are greater if you were castrated before the age of 40. Castration before age 25 may involve additional problems as your body has not yet finished its post-puberty growth. You should take at least 1,500 MG of calcium and 400 IU of Vitamin D daily. Shortly before or after castration, you should have a bone density scan, and after that a scan every two years. A proper diet and exercise program will help in the battle against osteoporosis.

DEPRESSION! This MUST be your #1 concern. Post-surgical depression is very likely as your testosterone levels crash. Chronic depression IS a major concern, and MAY require professional therapy (including antidepressants) before, during, and after the surgery. You need to consider the issue of depression BEFORE castration. If it is an issue before hand, it will almost certainly become a much larger one afterward. Castration before age 25 greatly increases your risk. Some eunuchs may have to take various amounts of testosterone to alleviate depression and other problems.

[Blaise (imported)]

This seems clear and helpful to me. I would add a comma here: involve additional problems,

as your body has not yet finished

Well, this has certainly been an enlightening thread. I want to thank all who have replied. To get back to square one, the purpose of this thread was to discuss a slight re-write of my "effects of castration".

In light of this thread, here is my SUGGESTED rewrite of two of the items. Again, your comments and input will be welcomed.

@@@



Osteoporosis should be your #2 concern. Your chances of getting this disease are greater if you were castrated before the age of 40. Castration before age 25 may involve additional problems as your body has not yet finished its post-puberty growth. You should take at least 1,500 MG of calcium and 400 IU of Vitamin D daily. Shortly before or after castration, you should have a bone density scan, and after that a scan every two years. A proper diet and exercise program will help in the battle against osteoporosis.

DEPRESSION! This MUST be your #1 concern. Post-surgical depression is very likely as your testosterone levels crash. Chronic depression IS a major concern, and MAY require professional therapy (including antidepressants) before, during, and after the surgery. You need to consider the issue of depression BEFORE castration. If it is an issue before hand, it will almost certainly become a much larger one afterward. Castration before age 25 greatly increases your risk. Some eunuchs may have to take various amounts of testosterone to alleviate depression and other problems.

[A-1 (imported)]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Fraj obviously had a depression-related castration fixation. He could have eliminated testosterone from his body several different ways (as apparently he did for awhile). I hope the science of chemical castration advances or is made more available to those who want electivce castration. Already there are advanced chemical castrations involving small subcutaneous shots that lost for an entire year or more (the "Lupron" class of drugs). Right now they are extremely expensive as they are prescribed mostly and mainly for those dying of prostate cancer. So for those people, dropping $1,000 or more per shot is nothing compared to the alternative. But hopefully once the companies are done squeezing the cancer crowd of it's money they'll look to other markets -- like chemical castration of prisoners and hypersexuals. I think a $500 one-shot year-long chemical castration injection would be wonderful for anyone contemplating castration. And for those wanting permanent castration, they could just come in for their yearly shot, maybe make it a New Year's tradition. There are also "immunocastration" technologies on the horizon, already being used in animal studies. This is the "promised land" of castration as far as I can see -- one simple shot that immunizes your body from testosterone, inducing permanent chemical hypogonadism. This simple shot will take the wind out of your sail, the lead out of your pencil, and make having any sort of sexuality completely optional -- you could get testosterone shots of you wish to remain active, if not just do nothing and be happy with your flaccid penis and deactivated testicles. You'll be a completely calm, asexual "stealth eunuch" in the sense that nobody will ever have to know that you've shut down your genitals for good. Just a quick trip to the doctor, one small injection and you'll be impotent within weeks, asexual within months. I think when this technology is widely available castration will be used more and more in a variety of settings and institutions. It could be mandatory for release from prison for sexually violent offenders -- and I would argue it be used upon first offence. A simple shot will eliminate most if not all public objections to castration -- it will percieved more as "treatment" and those who recieve it will consider it treatment as well. Most of the "punishment" of current castration involves the physical removal of the testicles, the main organs of male sexuality. Once males learn they can be asexualized without any surgery or change in external appearence, being castrated will be like getting a flu shot.

************************************************** ******

Reality Check... [

2B, My friend,

This had another name in the early 1900's

It was called eugenics.

Of course, I realize that the verbage is changed significantly, but the effect is the same in the end.

2 legal issues here,

1. Civil Rights Act of 1964

2. 1st Ammendment to the U.S. Constitution.

...and that is without pulling out the law books...there are many others and tons of case law, not to mention Civil Lawsuits where somebody paid victims BIGTIME...

Of course, the Patriot Act notwithstanding, the Supreme Court will never go for this one. Especially in light of the fact that DNA tests have revealed recently that innocent convicts have spent upwards of 20 years in prison doing life terms sometimes eye-witnesses have mis-identified them.

Also, death row inmates have been found innocent because of DNA testing, and no telling what technology might do next. (at least a Jurist may look at it from that standpoint)

It might make a nice story-line though if somebody wants to write it up.

Research is the key, though, take a look here...

http://www.freep.com/news/locway/q5dna26.htm

Not all "RAILROADING" involves diesel locomotives and heavy equipment.

Good Day, gentlemen

A-1

[Blaise (imported)]

Good point, involuntary castration requires human rights violations that undermine most of what we explore here.

[/b][/i]

************************************************** ******

Reality Check... [

2B, My friend,

This had another name in the early 1900's

It was called eugenics.

Of course, I realize that the verbage is changed significantly, but the effect is the same in the end.

2 legal issues here,

1. Civil Right Act of 1964

2. 1st Ammendment to the U.S. Constitution.

...and that is without pulling out the law books...

Of course, the Patriot Act notwithstanding, the Supreme Court will never go for this one. Especially in light of the fact that DNA have revealed recently that innocent convicts have spent upwards of 20 years in prison doing life terms sometimes eye-witnesses have mis-identified them.

Also, death row inmates have been found innocent because of DNA testing, and no telling what technology might do next. (at least a Jurist may look at it from that standpoint)

It might make a nice story-line though if somebody wants to write it up.

Research is the key, though, take a look here...

http://www.freep.com/news/locway/q5dna26.htm

Not all "RAILROADING" involves diesel locomotives and heavy equipment.

Good Day, gentlemen

A-1

[Blaise (imported)]

Yea, they will railroad all of us into some work camp. They will say that we lacked the balls for whatever they wanted us to do that we didn't do.

[An Onymus (imported)]

I was probably the one who motivated Andrew to explore this issue, and I wish I could remember where I read the passage relating to the effects of castration in the late teens or early twenties. I think the book was in the research library at UCLA, but all I remember is the comment that matters like physical form, beard growth, and voice pitch could be affected by castration at that age, more than in older individuals. Castration has never been my main interest in research about sex and society, and my academic field isn't closely related to these things, so I don't think I even took any notes at the time.

I would point out that there is probably a substantial population of persons castrated in that age range, between fifteen and twenty-five, among the hijras of South Asia. (That is the age when many of them begin careers as prostitutes, and excision of the genitalia is, I think, often done at that time to make them desirable as sex partners.) Because of the substantial eunuch populations in those countries, there has undoubtedly been research into their health issues, and perhaps that research is accessible. (Conceivably, Felix Spector, M.D. (Ret.) would have some knowledge of it.)

As to the case of the Fraj, I wasn't registered on the Archive at the time he was posting here, but I've read some of his posts--he seems to have been reasonably sane when he made them, and he gives the impression of being quite intelligent. If you've read books about people dealing with various kinds of difficult situations, including, among others, THE JUNGLE IS NEUTRAL, THE GULAG ARCHIPELAGO, COOPER'S CREEK, and ACROSS THE WIDE MISSOURI, one striking thing you notice in them, is that intelligent folk can often adapt to conditions, see the opportunities in their situations even though everything looks bad, and turn things around, to their advantage. I think there is some prospect that the Fraj could wind up doing something of that type--providing, of course, that he gets back into psychological equilibrium, and doesn't choose to expire during the next year or two. Castration may limit him in some areas, but could open opportunities in others.

[Blaise (imported)]

providing, of course, that he gets back into psychological equilibrium,

That is a vital assumption. It seems that most people who kill themselves act in a depressed state and that treating the depression often reduces the potential for suicide. What happens in depression is that one does not have a sense of hope. It is not simply feeling down. It is feeling that nothing will change how you feel.

Because of the substantial eunuch populations in those countries, there has undoubtedly been research into their health issues, and perhaps that research is accessible.

Maybe.It would be good to know if there is such research.

I was probably the one who motivated Andrew to explore this issue, and I wish I could remember where I read the passage relating to the effects of castration in the late teens or early twenties. I think the book was in the research library at UCLA, but all I remember is the comment that matters like physical form, beard growth, and voice pitch could be affected by castration at that age, more than in older individuals. Castration has never been my main interest in research about sex and society, and my academic field isn't closely related to these things, so I don't think I even took any notes at the time.

I would point out that there is probably a substantial population of persons castrated in that age range, between fifteen and twenty-five, among the hijras of South Asia. (That is the age when many of them begin careers as prostitutes, and excision of the genitalia is, I think, often done at that time to make them desirable as sex partners.) Because of the substantial eunuch populations in those countries, there has undoubtedly been research into their health issues, and perhaps that research is accessible. (Conceivably, Felix Spector, M.D. (Ret.) would have some knowledge of it.)

As to the case of the Fraj, I wasn't registered on the Archive at the time he was posting here, but I've read some of his posts--he seems to have been reasonably sane when he made them, and he gives the impression of being quite intelligent. If you've read books about people dealing with various kinds of difficult situations, including, among others, THE JUNGLE IS NEUTRAL, THE GULAG ARCHIPELAGO, COOPER'S CREEK, and ACROSS THE WIDE MISSOURI, one striking thing you notice in them, is that intelligent folk can often adapt to conditions, see the opportunities in their situations even though everything looks bad, and turn things around, to their advantage. I think there is some prospect that the Fraj could wind up doing something of that type--providing, of course, that he gets back into psychological equilibrium, and doesn't choose to expire during the next year or two. Castration may limit him in some areas, but could open opportunities in others.

[Blaise (imported)]

Malcolm X used prison to become a remarkable (extremist) man, who (later) greatly matured as a human being during and after his hajj. He used prison to change himself without conforming to the dominant culture.

After working for almost 25 years with addicted and alcoholic offenders, I am still amazed that people believe that they can safely drive under the influence of intoxicating substances. It's a cultural illness.

However, how well people do in recovery from alcoholism and other additions fascinates me. I prefer recovering addicted people to non-addicted people because those folks have had to take an in-depth look at their lives. They know themselves.The victims of genital violence in India probably could teach us a lot about being human beings.

Most of my research over the years has been internet-based, although I have a friend who occasionally can get me access to a fairly large medical archive online. So far I have run into precious little research data about castrated men at any age, save for that involving medical results in response to testicular and prostatic cancer. I have found a few articles, viz., depression and sexual (dys)function among these (especially older prostate patients), but none were terribly informative. I have never found any research data, viz., the hira - medically speaking. I may just not have connected yet. But then the hijra are considered in India to be among the lowest of the low classes, and given the nature of that society, I doubt that much research effort would be tendered in that direction.

Many people do have a very amazing ability to adapt to strange, bizarre, and difficult life situations to the extent that they in some ways become normalized. Intelligence oftentimes does facilitate this. I saw it all the time in prisons. The risk of course, is that in normalizing these conditions, people often lose their "normality" and sensibilities and sensitivities, and it can be a very difficult thing to recover from. After working the system of corrections in this country for over 13 years, I have in so many ways become so enured of its bizzarre, violent, and strange ways, that it is very difficult to shock me any more. What horrifies most people, I sometimes look at and think been there heard that before - nothing new. THAT is scary. Also as frightening, is that many of these people can become quite cold and passionless, or they go to the extreme opposite and become passionate extremists, and they do return to live among us. Fortunately, not are all bad, i.e., Alexander Solzenhitzen, after his return from the Gulags. Not bad man, just very bizzarre and unable to cope well with the world.

The lesson, I think, is that we often can recover, probably recover reasonably well, but things will never, ever be the same again.

Krister

[TerryUK (imported)]

I agree that there should be a minimum age before a man should be able to seek castration. With such a big step and the effect that it will have on a man's life, he does need to have some experience of life.

I suggest that a man should be aged at least 30 before he can seek castration "on demand" as it were. I am not suggesting that no man should ever be castrated before he reaches 30. If he wishes to be castrated before that age, then he should be required to go on a course of anti-androgen drugs for at least three months. Not only will this give him the opportunity to experience life as a eunuch (but still with the chance to change his mind before the final cut) but also it gives him time to think about losing his balls and to be really sure that this is how he wants to be for the rest of his life.

Provided that he has had a trial run as a "chemical castrate" and been properly counselled, then it should be possible for any man over the age of legal consent to be castrated.

Terry (a much older and very contented eunuch)

[Blaise (imported)]

Why thirty? How do you decide that age over twenty-five or twenty-eight and four months?

What are the signs of maturity a candidate ought to have? Who establishes the norms?

Chemical castration plainly makes sense for many candidates for bodily castration. Medical situations may make that stage gratuitous.

I agree that there should be a minimum age before a man should be able to seek castration. With such a big step and the effect that it will have on a man's life, he does need to have some experience of life.

I suggest that a man should be aged at least 30 before he can seek castration "on demand" as it were. I am not suggesting that no man should ever be castrated before he reaches 30. If he wishes to be castrated before that age, then he should be required to go on a course of anti-androgen drugs for at least three months. Not only will this give him the opportunity to experience life as a eunuch (but still with the chance to change his mind before the final cut) but also it gives him time to think about losing his balls and to be really sure that this is how he wants to be for the rest of his life.

Provided that he has had a trial run as a "chemical castrate" and been properly counselled, then it should be possible for any man over the age of legal consent to be castrated.

Terry (a much older and very contented eunuch)