Do the effects of castration change with age?

[manc-wannabe (imported)]

hello,

I'm new to the forum so this is only my 2nd post I have been interested in getting castrated since i was 13/14 and I was 18 in November, so I'm just legal

Anyway, I am seriously interested in getting castrated and have read the effects of it with great interest, as I am thinking of visiting Dr Kimmel when I go on my gap year either next year or after graduation from university (read in 4 yrs time). I read that the effects of castration are different if you are under 25, so if I got castrated at 19 would be effects be very different to say if you were 40?

I am well aware of the issues of sterility and depression, and I am giving them some serious thought, and am considering asking my GP for androcur, so I can have a trial run (but i doubt the NHS here in Britain would pay for it, so I might have to buy it online, which for a poor student is a lot of money!! ) Has anybody got any answers to these questions or general commentry - it would be welcomed

MW

[JesusA (imported)]

Welcome to the Eunuch Archive!

Fortunately, you’re still very young! You may not think so, but, in the trajectory of your life, you are just beginning. I’m glad that you arrived here and have begun to explore your options and the consequences involved in any decisions. Take your time. Ask plenty of questions. Read the medical and psychological information that is here.

A good starting point would be Andrew’s The Effects of Castration (http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4575). This is a quick overview of some of the medical questions and consequences. It has gone through many revisions with input from the members here.

Next, I would go to the Story Review Board to read the comments on A Warning to Others (http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4577). Pay special attention to Dr. Wassersug’s medical observations on the frequency of depression. There are links to two outstanding stories from that thread. Read both of them.

There are a number of excellent threads on the Health Concerns Board. I would suggest reviewing the history of posts there, but probably starting with Castration + or – (http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4515). The thread begins with a critical question: We have all read about the many successes of castration. What about the people who have regretted it for some reason?

While there are certainly people posting on the Eunuch Archive whose lives have benefited greatly from their castration, there are others, most of whom do NOT post here, who are far WORSE off for their castration. You have time to do the necessary research.

At one point on the Archive there was a long discussion on what should be the minimum age of consent for such an irreversible step as voluntary castration. The general consensus was that TWENTY-FIVE seemed most appropriate. If that was the age that people here – who mostly approve of voluntary castration – thought should be the minimum age, you have seven years to do your research and think about it.

While it doesn’t answer everything about your question of age effects on castration, there is an article titled Long-Term Consequences of Castration in Men: Lessons from the Skoptzy and the Eunuchs of the Chinese and Ottoman Courts (http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/conten ... 84/12/4324) by Jean D. Wilson and Claus Roehrborn. The link will take you directly to the original article in The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism. Much more research clearly needs to be done to fully answer your question, but the short answer is that there are definite age-related differences and that 25 actually DOES seem to be somewhere near the critical age.

Don’t hurry. Talk to people on both sides of the issue: those who are pleased that they were castrated and those who deeply regret their actions. (There is one young person – currently 22 years old – who regrets his castration by Dr. Kimmel and who lives only a short train ride from Manchester. If you are interested in talking with him, I will ask him if he is willing to either meet you in person or to talk with you on the telephone.)

[sag111 (imported)]

Thank you my friend Jesus it is the people here like you who share thair experances that can make a diffrence in somones life.You are young my friend and i would hate to see you do somthing that cant be reversed.Now if you just have to try this i plead with you try the chemical castration first for you never know how your body will react to castration and chemical castration can be reversed.Depo provera and Androcur are the most popular for chemical castration and can be obtained from over seas pharmacies.So do your home work and get it right for it is a very serious thing and should never be taken lightley.

[Kelly_2 (imported)]

Jesus and Sag111 have some very good advice. You may want to try chemical castration first. Depo-Provera may have serious side effects, including suicidal depression (several people have indeed killed themselves after an injection). Androcur might be a good one. Androcur will put the testosterone levels at castrate levels.

Try that for a year. You might like it. It may help with the final decision.

Sex hormones are important for bone density as well as many other things, including mental health. Being without them for several decades can affect health. Many of us take some form of hormones, either testosterone or estrogen. Personally, I take estrogen. That makes me moody, but not depressed.

I know that you have read a lot about this. I understand that you would. I suppose that I am just wishing you the best. I do not know what your motives are, mine involved my gender identity. Others want to be rid of that strong libido. Both are valid reasons.

More pertinent to your question is that masculinization continues for quite a number of years. You will likely not achieve the manliness of other men as you age. And I am sure that you are aware that you are likely to grow breasts.

Since my motives were not the same as others, I will let other people add more. But for now, have you read our own Sherry's castration information site? She was done by Spector, as were so many of us here:

http://www.geocities.com/sherrylanina/Castration.html

I wish you the best in life.

Kelly

[Kelly_2 (imported)]

Next, I would go to the Story Review Board to read the comments on A Warning to Others (http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4577).

I just read that, along with the story mentioned:

http://www.eunuch.org/Alpha/W/ea_191155a_warnin.htm

Very strong and not pretty at all.

I wonder how often this occurs? We know of success stories, and the majority here who have been castrated seem quite OK with it. We often do not hear about the non-success stories. They may be common.

It may be difficult, but a study of the rate of satisfaction would be good to know.

There are satisfaction studies for people with my condition, and they are generally favorable. This one is a tad weird:

http://www.symposion.com/ijt/pfaefflin/3015.htm

because the author's viewpoint is strange:

"The removal of the visible anatomical structures which reflect basic masculinity is seen as the final step into true femininity. Only a minority accept it for what it really is - that is, a neutering procedure or, perhaps more correctly, a castrating process. It is difficult to persuade transsexuals who have had their genitals removed that they are, in fact, nothing more than castrated males, although they may give lip service to this concept if pressed. Because of their often consciously fostered orientation they compel themselves to believe that they are at last women. ... By castration the transsexual patients have achieved, to a limited degree, a harmony of mind and external conformation which they assert will entitle them to take on the full privileges and functions of a female in society. In fact, they fall short of full function as a female for obvious reasons related to coition and reproduction - regardless of how they may attempt to convince themselves that they are female."

The study does state, though:

Six patients had attempted suicide pre-surgically. Post-surgically two females committed suicide.

and:

Results

Females: Cosmetic: Surgical results were evaluated by the author to be ten times as good, 16 times as fair and twice as poor. Subjectively, four females were very satisfied with the cosmetic results, 18 satisfied and six dissatisfied. In comparing the self with external evaluation it is noticeable that the surgical results are rated better by the author than by the patients themselves.

Regarding sexual functioning ability, it was discovered that 19 of the 29 females could not have sexual intercourse because of unsatisfactory surgical results. Satisfaction, resp., dissatisfaction with the sex change did not depend on sexual functioning in the author's opinion.

The post-surgical adaptation was evaluated seven times as excellent, 14 times as being good, three times as fair, once as poor and four times as very poor. Pre-surgically, more than one third of the patients were evaluated regarding their adaptation as poor and one third as fair. A worsening in comparison to the pre-surgical status happened to four patients.

But when we read a study conducted by an MD, Ph.D. who is herself transsexual, we see a different and more favorable outcome:

http://www.symposion.com/ijt/hbigda/200 ... wrence.htm

Most respondents reported high overall happiness with their SRS result, and substantial improvement in their quality of life with SRS. None reported outright regret, and only 15 (6%) expressed even occasional regret.

I can imagine that trying to determine what percentage of long-term satisfaction of men who have been castrated from simply wanting it done may be a very difficult thing to do. The rate of dissatisfaction might be higher that we imagine.

Hugs,

Kelly

Castration by Spector

Penectomy et al. by Suporn

[Andrew (imported)]

I read that the effects of castration are different if you are under 25, so if I got castrated at 19 would be effects be very different to say if you were 40?

Not VERY different, just to a degree. Your chances of getting osteoporosis are greatly increased if you are castrated before age 40. Men build up bone denisty until about age 40, after which is starts a slow decline. After castration, bone density starts to decline, and this may be a more rapid decline then in an intact male.

Since you will be a eunuch longer then those castrated after age 40, you can expect more in the way of gynecomastia, fat redistribution, and other eunuchoid features.

Here is my latest version of the effects of castration, actually a group effort by EA members.

@@@@@

Every Eunuch will have different effects from his castration. YMWV = Your Mileage Will Vary. Those who do not choose to take Testosterone Replacement Therapy can expect the following.

Infertility, in all cases. If this could be an issue, bank some sperm beforehand.

Some (but by no means all) eunuchs develop “The Eunuch Calm”, a feeling of tranquil contentment, with reduced or eliminated thoughts of sex, aggression, and ambition. This has happened to me, but, again, YMWV.

Reduced libido, erections, and nocturnal emissions, sometimes to the point of total impotence and asexuality.

Weight gain, including subcutaneous body fat. (This thin layer of fat causes the skin to become softer and smoother.) You will need a lifetime diet and exercise program to avoid this problem.

Loss or thinning of body hair, but male pattern baldness slows down or stops. Reduced body odor.

Loss of lean muscle mass (hence muscle weakness, increased fatigue, and loss of stamina). Your shoulders will become narrower and you will lose muscle definition in your upper torso without a VIGOROUS exercise program.

Little to mild breast development (gynecomastia), and mild fat redistribution around the hips and thighs.

The penis may shrink.

Hot flushes and night sweats. Very much a YMWV happening. Some eunuchs take low levels of estrogen to counteract this. Consult your Physician.

POSSIBLE moodiness and tearfulness. Do not be surprised if you start crying far more frequently over what may seem to be trivial matters.

There MIGHT be cognitive losses, mostly in spatial orientation and short term memory.

Osteoporosis should be your #2 concern. Your chances of getting this disease are greater if you were castrated before the age of 40. You should take at least 1,500 MG of calcium and 400 IU of Vitamin D daily. Shortly before or after castration, you should have a bone density scan, and after that a scan every two years. A proper diet and exercise program will help in the battle against osteoporosis.

DEPRESSION! This MUST be your #1 concern. Post-surgical depression is very likely as your testosterone levels crash. Chronic depression IS a major concern, and MAY require professional therapy (including antidepressants) before, during, and after the surgery. You need to consider the issue of depression BEFORE castration. If it is an issue before hand, it will almost certainly become a much larger one afterward. Some eunuchs may have to take various amounts of testosterone to alleviate depression and other problems.

A Final Thought: most Physicians have no experience in caring for the hypogonadal male. Consider finding a Physician who has a thorough working knowledge on the problems and treatments of menopausal and post-menopausal women. Whilst the biology of a Eunuch and a post-menopausal woman are not identical, there is some overlap.

[Blaise (imported)]

I have read that aging men and women tend to become somewhat alike as we age and the production of gender formative hormones declines. When I was young, gynecomastia would have fascinated me only if I had sought transgender surgery. It became at factor when I experience reduced production of testosterone. I suppose that I really do not mind fat redistribution or all other eunuchoid features. It’s the price of survival.

What intrigues me is how undergoing the knife or hormonal chemotherapy changed the social roles of those of you who are eunuchs. Obviously, large parts of the changes have this fascinating social component.

G

et it right for it is a very serious thing and should never be taken lightley.

I underwent years of psychotherapy for depression. One outcome was knowledge about many aspects of my emotional experience. I recommend such therapy. It is part of self-discovery.

I do not know what the eunuchs on this board think about doing psychotherapy before undergoing operations or chemotherapy. My impression is that the people who frequently post here have self-knowledge and emotional maturity. I am interested in whether you guys would recommend psychotherapy as part of the process of change.

The lack of knowledge by medical people including psychotherapists would be a problem. I am certain that they would not always be helpful.

[manc-wannabe (imported)]

Hi,

Thanks for all the replies - it is certainly given me a lot of thinking and reading to do!! I certainly agree that castration is not to be taken lightly at all, and intend to do a lot of research into the affects to see if it is right for me. The Reasons that I can think of for wanting to be castrated would be:

1) Loss of libido and sex drive, as sex and sexual thoughts are taking up far too much of my time and meaning other interests are suffering.

2) Loss of Masulinity of the body - I don't want to be female but I would certainly like to have less body hair and keep a more teenage look, as opposed to looking like a fully mature man - not sure if this sounds right, but I hope you understand

The Issue of depresssion does seriously concern me, at the moment I have no issues with depression at all, and with the exception of wanting to be castrated for the above reasons, I would say I am happy with my life. Could castration in this case lead to depression, as I don't really have much to be depressed about other that the loss of the genitals?

Many thanks for all the replies, I am going to do more reading and if I have any more questions, I will of course post them. Of course, any more thoughts/info would be very welcome

MW

[eunuchunique (imported)]

EU here, checking in on this discussion.

Since you are several years past puberty, castration now will not make a big difference in keeping you looking adolescent. However you are still young enough that it could have serious consequences on your skeleton in the long term. Yup, as you have already been told, you won't go bald, but you may get budgy and count on developing breasts. You can expect to gain fat and loss muscle.

For a chemical trial run at eunuchdom, an LH-RH agonist is probably a better drug to take than Androcur. More reversible, but LH-RH agonists are more expensive.

Whatever you do, you should talk to your doctor about how unhappy you are. You should check out some sort of counselling programme. Although you say you are not depressed, you describe yourself as obsessed. In that regard, some of the SSRI anti-depressant drugs may actually be a better starting point than direct chemical castration. They are becoming increasingly common in the treatment of compulsive-obsessive ideations. And some have the extra benefit, for someone like yourself, of suppressing the libdio. My guess is that your doctor(s) might want to start you on one of those drugs.

If every male relative in your family has had prostate and/or testicular cancer, you may have an argument for exploring castration--in about twenty years.

Meanwhile I would be interest in hearing what you doctor recommends.

EU

Hi,

Thanks for all the replies - it is certainly given me a lot of thinking and reading to do!! I certainly agree that castration is not to be taken lightly at all, and intend to do a lot of research into the affects to see if it is right for me. The Reasons that I can think of for wanting to be castrated would be:

1) Loss of libido and sex drive, as sex and sexual thoughts are taking up far too much of my time and meaning other interests are suffering.

2) Loss of Masulinity of the body - I don't want to be female but I would certainly like to have less body hair and keep a more teenage look, as opposed to looking like a fully mature man - not sure if this sounds right, but I hope you understand

The Issue of depresssion does seriously concern me, at the moment I have no issues with depression at all, and with the exception of wanting to be castrated for the above reasons, I would say I am happy with my life. Could castration in this case lead to depression, as I don't really have much to be depressed about other that the loss of the genitals?

Many thanks for all the replies, I am going to do more reading and if I have any more questions, I will of course post them. Of course, any more thoughts/info would be very welcome

MW

[manc-wannabe (imported)]

EU here, checking in on this discussion.

Since you are several years past puberty, castration now will not make a big difference in keeping you looking adolescent. However you are still young enough that it could have serious consequences on your skeleton in the long term. Yup, as you have already been told, you won't go bald, but you may get budgy and count on developing breasts. You can expect to gain fat and loss muscle.

For a chemical trial run at eunuchdom, an LH-RH agonist is probably a better drug to take than Androcur. More reversible, but LH-RH agonists are more expensive.

Whatever you do, you should talk to your doctor about how unhappy you are. You should check out some sort of counselling programme. Although you say you are not depressed, you describe yourself as obsessed. In that regard, some of the SSRI anti-depressant drugs may actually be a better starting point than direct chemical castration. They are becoming increasingly common in the treatment of compulsive-obsessive ideations. And some have the extra benefit, for someone like yourself, of suppressing the libdio. My guess is that your doctor(s) might want to start you on one of those drugs.

If every male relative in your family has had prostate and/or testicular cancer, you may have an argument for exploring castration--in about twenty years.

Meanwhile I would be interest in hearing what you doctor recommends.

EU

Hi,

Thanks for your reply. Just a few points here:

1) How and why do you think I am obsessed?? Yes, I am interested in being in castrated and like many on the board (I think) this interest began at puberty - 13/14 in my case, but to call this interest/desire an obsession would be harsh to say the least. I would be interested to understand your reasoning here

2) I would say that I am not past puberty completly, and so the effects may be different - i.e I have not fully developed facial hair, and physcially I have not stopped growing yet - from the best of my knowledge, you only completly stop growing at 25 - which is when many here reccommend is the cut of point for castration before which it is not recommended.

I am aware that several people regret thier decision and I intend to complete my research and understand my decision before/if I follow through and speak to one person who does regret it and who lives near me. I know - it is not to be taken lightly

MW