My Life as a Eunuch

[ridgel1n9 (imported)]

Many animals have little problem whatsoever with being "fixed" and it's frustrating that human males have lethargy and osteoperosis and nasty stuff like that so often.

Um, their _owners_

have little problem whatsoever.

The decline in energy level and osteoperosis are effects of castration, period, and apply to all animals. The current line of bullshit promoted by the spay/neuter crowd that the operation has no effect on animals beyond sterilization is just that -- bullshit -- and flies in the fact of historical fact. Livestock are castrated to make them easier to fatten (i.e.: slows their metabolism) and more tractable (i.e.: less energy and less aggression), and have been for centuries. That neutered pets suffer from osteoperosis is a little known but true fact. And as a side note, castration of humans results in the complete extinction of sexuality in 90% of cases -- as documented in research on the effects of bilaterial orchidectomy in prostate cancer patients and sex offenders who do not receive HRT -- like any other male animal. That this ratio does not seem to be reflected in postings on EA message boards suggests that perhaps those who seek castration for themselves suffer from abnormally high levels of testosterone and thus tend to be members of that 10% after they achive their goal.

[polecat (imported)]

The decline in energy level and osteoperosis are effects of castration, period, and apply to all animals. The current line of bullshit promoted by the spay/neuter crowd that the operation has no effect on animals beyond sterilization is just that -- bullshit -- and flies in the fact of historical fact. Livestock are castrated to make them easier to fatten (i.e.: slows their metabolism) and more tractable (i.e.: less energy and less aggression), and have been for centuries.

I don't know where you're pulling your strawman from, but I've never heard of a person in the spay/neuter crowd who said that it wouldn't slow metabolism, and reduce aggression. Those are supposed to be good points. What I'm worried about is suicidal depression, self mutilation and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, all things very much not characteristic of any (non-human) castration I've ever seen. Are you saying a castrated human will just get a little fatter, funner and cuddlier? I mean, that's great and all...

That neutered pets suffer from osteoperosis is a little known but true fact.

My sample size must be too small then. I've had 6 pets neutered now, and none of them have developed osteoperosis, not even the 2 dead ones, cats, both 18 years old.

And as a side note, castration of humans results in the complete extinction of sexuality in 90% of cases -- as documented in research on the effects of bilaterial orchidectomy in prostate cancer patients and sex offenders who do not receive HRT -- like any other male animal.

Yes, that's another selling point.

That this ratio does not seem to be reflected in postings on EA message boards suggests that perhaps those who seek castration for themselves suffer from abnormally high levels of testosterone and thus tend to be members of that 10% after they achive their goal.

Erm... I think the only people here who are sexually active are either the ones who are not castrated yet, or the ones who are taking hormone replacement. The ratio you perceive is probably just because some haven't mentioned they're on HRT to you.

[Christina (imported)]

Many animals have little problem whatsoever with being "fixed" and it's frustrating that human males have lethargy and ost

eoperosis and nasty stuff like that so often.

The decline in energy level and osteoperosis are effects of castration, period, and apply to all animals. The current line of bullshit promoted by the spay/neuter crowd that the operation has no effect on animals beyond sterilization is just that -- bullshit -- and flies in the fact of historical fact. Livestock are castrated to make them easier to fatten (i.e.: slows their

metabolism) and more tractable (i.e.: less ene

rgy and less aggression), and have been for centuries.

I don't know where you're pulling your strawman from, but I've never heard of a person in the spay/neuter crowd who said that it wouldn't slow metabolism, and reduce aggression. Those are supposed to be good points. What I'm worried about is suicidal depression, self mutilation and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, all things very much not characteristic of any (non-human) castration I've ever seen. Are y

ou saying a castrated human will just get a little fatter, funner and cuddlier? I mean, that's great and all...

I think the point here is that we can not compare different species.

True, there may be some overlap in the effects of castration, but one can't assume it's the same for all species.

My sample size must be too small then. I've had 6 pets

neutered now, and none of them have developed osteoperosis, not even the 2 dead ones, cats, both 18 years old.

Apparently it is. I've owned pets for many years also, and they DO get fracuted bones and hips at an older age.

Given the life span of a pet, I doubt anyone h

as had a bone density test done for the animal as a prevetative measure against osteoporosis until after the fact.

Erm... I think the only people here who are sexually active are either the ones who are not castrated yet, or the ones who are taking ho

rmone replacement. The ratio you perceive is probably just because some haven't mentioned they're on HRT to you.

Being sexually active should not be inclusive to penatrating sex alone. I'm sure there are some who still can, and do, satisfy a partner without intercourse.

[polecat (imported)]

I think the point here is that we can not compare different species.

True, there may be some overlap in the effects of castration, but one can't assume it's the same for all species.True. I'd more wonder if something common to horses, cattle, cats, dogs and ferrets was not common to humans. Which isn't out of the question: apes are pretty darn strange in their reproduction cycles and processes. So... yeah.

Apparently it is. I've owned pets for many years also, and they DO get fracuted bones and hips at an older age.

So do human males in their old age. It's a question of degree and severity I think; bone density loss is just something inevitable past the age of 60 or so.

Given the life span of a pet, I doubt anyone h

as had a bone density test as a prevetative measure against osteoporosis until after the fact.Lifespan might not have that much to do with it! We are programmed to die with quite amazing regularity I have to admit. From mice to men the process of aging proceeds through very similar steps, even with things which only live 1 or 2 years long! Bone density is one of those things I think. A 16 year old human and a 16 year old cat are going to be worlds apart in terms of bone frailty. So it's very well likely that pets experience quite a lot of loss of bone density as they age. The question is what that means for their life expectancy, fixed or not fixed, and if that applies at all to use.

Being sexually active should not be inclusive to penatrating sex alone. I'm sure there are some who still can, and do, satisfy a partner without intercourse.

Castration is not inclusive to penetrating sex alone either. It reduces overall sexual desire and function. But, of course for emotional reasons, and out of caring for their partner, if they have one, is why many eunuchs continue in that behavior, I'd guess.

[ridgel1n9 (imported)]

I don't know where you're pulling your strawman from, but I've never heard of a person in the spay/neuter crowd who said that it woul

dn't slow metabolism, and reduce aggression.

Oh really? Well, here's a quote for you from http://www.awla.org/spay_neuter_main.html

"My pet will get fat and lazy."

Wrong, wrong, wrong! Spaying or neutering is not the reason pets gain weight. It's too much food and too little exercise. And their metabolism slows down as they age, just like humans. Their diet must be adjusted to compensate for this.

I.e.: blatent false statement that neutering does not affect weight. Which is does, see livestock data. Other pages make similarly false statements about behavior (but not that one). In livestock the weight gain is desired, so the diet is

not "adjusted to compensate" for the lowered metabolism.

Those are supposed to be good points. What I'm worried about is suicidal depression, self mutilation and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, all things very much not characteristic of any (non-human) castration I've ever seen. Are you saying a c

astrated human will just get a little fatter, funner and cuddlier? I mean, that's great and all...

What I'm saying is that castrated animals don't "

just get a little fatter, funner,

and cuddlier". They may not get depressed, but they do suffer from a lack of energy and the other physica

l health effects of androgen deficiency. And the "funner" part is in the mind of the owner, not the animal.

[q

uote="polecat (imported)" time=1127543760]
My sample size must be too small then. I've had 6 pets neutered now, and none of them have developed osteoperosis, not even the 2 dead ones, cats, both 18 years old.
[/quote]


Here's another quote for you, from http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/CCAB/isaz2003.html this time:

Although gonadectomy may prevent certain medical problems, given the recent surge in studies on the nonreproductive effects of reproductive hormones, touting the health benefits of gonadectomy may become increasing more difficult to do in the future. In the behavioral realm, once again the traditional justification given for the surgery doesn't jive with the timing of the surgery and scientific fact, or with what those working with dogs and cats displaying behavior problems see every day.

Yes, that's another selling point.

While it may be a selling

point to some, others think depriving other creatures of their sexuality is evil.

[quote="polecat (imported)" ti

me=1127543760]
Erm... I think the only people here who are sexually active are either the ones who are not castrated yet, or the ones who are taking hormone replacement. The ratio you perceive is probably just because some haven't mentioned they're on HRT to you.
[/quote]


Um, no, I'm refering to the various claims I have read in multiple threads on the EA messages boards of retaining sexual functioning after castration without HRT. I could just assume they're lying. But like I said maybe this is an unusual sample set.

[ridgel1n9 (imported)]

I think the point here

is that we can not compare different species.

True, there may be some overlap in the effects of castra

tion, but one can't assume it's the same for all species.

True. But studies increasingly indicate that the effects do overlap in mammals. The smaller and assumedly simpler brains of other mammals limits the mental effects, but it is irrational to assume that any great difference in physical effects exists. Occam's razor and all that.

Being sexually active should not be inclusive to penatrating sex alone. I'm sure there are some who still can, and do, satisfy a partner without intercourse.

Fwiw, I was refering to the sexual function of the male involved, not his ability to satisfy a partner. The fact that the ability to receive sexual pleasure is not required to give it is a frequent theme in the EA story archives.

And now I've spent 90 minutes replying on this thread. Sigh.

[polecat (imported)]

Oh really? Well, here's a quote for you from http://www.awla.org/spay_neuter_main.html

"My pet will get fat and lazy."

Wrong, wrong, wrong! Spaying or neutering is not the reason pets gain weight. It's too much food and too little exercise. And their metabolism slows down as they age, just like humans. Their diet must be adjusted to compensate for this.

It's true. Pets gain weight from too much food and not enough exercise, a

nd their metabolism slows down as they age.

I don't know what your requirement for "blatently false" is, but the only correction I'd make their is to change "not the reason" to "not the only reason," which seems to be implied. What they are saying is that a fat and lazy pet is not due to the neutering alone: it also takes neglect from the owner.

How about this then:

http://www.vmth.ucdavis.edu/home/beh/fe ... /spay.html

Other than the previously mentioned behavior changes, spaying or neutering your cat is unlikely to change their basic personality. Some cats appear "lazy" since they are less likely to roam and may gain weight. In one study, 25% of cat owners felt their cats became more "docile" following castration. Hunting skills, playfulness, general activity levels, excitement, and vocalization also do not typically change following surgery.Does that suit your judgement of an objective stance?

T

hey do suffer from a lack of energy and the other physica

l health effects of androgen deficiency. And the "funner" part is in the mind of the owner, not the animal.The definition of suffer likes in the mind of the critic I think. As for funner, I find it troubling you would imply that pet owners who spay don't care about whether their pet is having fun or not. I'm just wondering why, or if, the reaction to castration is more severe for humans than the other animals we castrate.

Here's another quote for you, from http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/CCAB/isaz2003.html

Here's another quote from that article:

Doing so raises the possibility that the choice of companion animal veterinary practice to align itself with human rather than food animal medicine (and the willingness of the public to accept this alignment) lies at the heart of the more emotion-less science-driven approach to neutering.Not exactly the most objective of language there. How about this then:

http://www.oregonvma.org/petowners/spayneuter.asp

9. Will spaying or neutering my pet cause it to become fat and lazy?

No. Weight gain is due to being fed more calories than the animal uses. Watch the quantity of food you give your pet. Also, older pets need fewer calories than younger ones because they tend to be less active and are no longer growing. Regular play and exercise, along with diet, are the keys to keeping your pet in shape.Now we have one veterinarian saying that maybe, hopefully in the future, though there is no peer-reviewed evidence for it now, that we'll discover that spaying and neutering is unhealthy. And one association of veterinarians in complete agreement that spaying and neutering are healthy for the animal, if not particularly contributary to the gene pool.

I hate to say it, but even from a vet, "just doesn't jive" just doesn't cut it. Give us hard numbers, precedent, established cases, or else don't play in the sandbox.

While it may be a selling point to some, others think depriving other creatures of their sexuality is evil.Oh, evil? Depriving? I don't know who these others are, whoever they may be, but my deepest sympathy goes out to them that they are so afflicted as to see a cat sitting serenely in a windowsill, with the most beautiful coat of clean, brushed fur, and a belly full of chicken, and call that evil. Then to see the emaciated body of a ferret jill, recently deceased of blood anemia because her owners let her go into heat and couldn't find a hob to mate her with, and call that good. Far be it from me to criticise, but somehow the notion that female dogs in heat can, and will hurl themselves against a chain link fence repeatedly in an attempt to escape and get pregnant, that doesn't seem very healthy or kind to me. And for those bitches who do escape and "discover their sexuality," it brings to mind the song by Dr. Demento, "Dead puppies aren't much fun."

But that's just my opinion. If those other people want to consider spaying and neutering evil, I may oppose them considering it either cruel, ideological, misguided and rife with consequences that hurt everyone, but I won't begrudge them their opinion. If you don't want to spay and neuter your pet, don't get a pet then: go work at a reputable animal breeding farm instead.

Um, no, I'm refering to the various claims I have read in multiple threads on the EA messages boards of retaining sexual functioning after castration without HRT. I could just assume they're lying. But like I said maybe this is an unusual sample set.

Well, I haven't seen those claims myself. o.O We must frequent different threads; usually I avoid the ones that look like blatant posturing and bravado. You're probably right in assuming they're lying. Depending on what they mean by sexual function of course: sex isn't all hormonal.

[Paolo]

If anyone noticed, Don hasn't logged in in over a year, which makes him a "guest".

I hope he's doing well.