Chemical castration and gynecomastia. Best drug to avoid this side effect.

[kuramafox (imported)]

Hi, I was just wondering has anybody managed to take antiandrogens WITHOUT any breast development?,Specifically Gynecomastia. I've read into spironolactone, bicalutamide, cyproterone acetate and more. The side effects say gynecomastia and I could live with any side effect except this specifically.

The reason I want to take antiandrogens is to prevent any further masculization, Male pattern baldness,excess libido, etc. But the thought of growing breasts scares the shit out of me.

Ive been reading studies done spironolactone has about a 30 to 60 percent chance of inducing gyno depending on the dose taken between 100 to 200 g mg http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... download+p age+will+be+unavailable+on+Friday+27th+January+201 7+at+23%3A00+GMT%2F+18%3A00+EST%2F+07%3A00+SGT+%28 Saturday+28th+Jan+for+SGT%29++for+up+to+2+hours+du e+to+essential+server+maintenance.+Apologies+for+t he+inconvenience.

This is what I took for a month and then stopped after reading this study. I assume bica has a higher rate than spiro. I don't know much about cypro but from one hairloss poster who takes about 200 mg a day, he has posted a pic on his thread saying het go no gyno.

So right now I'm contemplating cyproterone acetate, it is used by men with sexual deviance and in chemical castration and since it is approved for this maybe it's rate of gyno is very less. Here are this users results.

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/t ... 38/page-23

So anyways, long story short, what's the best antiandrogen/blocker to take to retain a masculine appearance and avoid breast development long term and has anyone managed to achieve this via your current regimen. I would be more than happy to know if this is possible, please share your views.

Thank your for reading, have a nice day.

[CastratedTomcat (imported)]

Better should be Finasteride for that!

Gyno you can prevent with low doses of tamoxifene.

[Prismatic (imported)]

One thing you could take to prevent or reduce breast development would be raloxifene. It basically blocks estrogen receptors in breast tissue, preventing breast development or reducing it, while acting like estrogen and activating the receptors in bone tissue and some other areas. It is used by women with breast cancer, and also by bodybuilders using steroids who don't want manboobs to form. It does have a good track record and history of use in humans.

It would work with any of those anti-androgens you listed.

I don't use it myself but I know a few people who do use it to prevent breast growth while on anti-androgens. These are people who like you "

want to take antiandrogens is to prevent any further masculization

"

Cyproterone still caries risks of causing gynecomastia. AFAIK there isn't a "magic pill" anti-androgen that carries no risk of causing gynecomastia but perhaps someone else will have a recommendation. Either way, if you notice breast development beginning, you could start raloxifene to make what did develop go away and prevent further development.

[kuramafox (imported)]

Yeah I know about finasteride and I currently take it too. But I require something stronger, I suffer from acne, hairloss, seborrhea of the scalp which gives me intense dermatitis/dandruff, I've been losing hair too, it's slow and gradual but my crown is thinning and my hairline seems to be getting higher. I need an antiandrogen which destroys T/dht and seborrhea.

It's destroying me to be honest, to see the version of yourself, the person you want to be be destroyed by your own toxic testosterone fueled body.

I've heard about tamoxifene/raloxifene too, but I read that hair loss and thinning of hair is a side effect of tamox which scares me tbh.

https://www.drugs.com/sfx/tamoxifen-side-effects.html.

I came across this text

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/articles/1838080/

Basically Cpa has a 20 percent chance of slight gynecomastia, which seems pretty good imo compared to bica or spiro.

Thnx for the suggestions though. Still looking for validation that Cpa is safe for not causing gyno, anyone here on cpa, what is your experience with this drug, specifically gyno wise?

[erikboy (imported)]

Basically, what causes gynecomastia, is estrogen dominance, after testosterone is supressed. But in real life it isn't that simple. Chemistry of hormones is much more complex than that, plus people seem to have different sensitivities to various hormones and their precursors. It is most effective to supress estrogen production or block its receptors to prevent gynecomastia. Though, some people naturally won't develope gynecomastia while chemically castrated.

[Prismatic (imported)]

kuramafox I am on CPA and I couldn't tell you whether it gave me gyno or not because I gave myself gyno by several stints of taking estrogen. I don't care about what I've developed so I do nothing to combat it. They haven't gotten any larger just taking CPA and nothing else, and they've lost some sensitivity and a slight amount of size/nipples got less puffy, but at the same time I have no way of knowing whether CPA alone this whole time would have given me any gynecomastia. It certainly hasn't made it worse for me but at the same time I probably have more than I'd ever have developed taking AA's alone.

In regards to hair loss concerns on SERMs (raloxifene, tamoxifene) one thing you could do is cycle them -if- you notice breast development. That way you clear away what little does develop, while lowering risks of negative side-effects from the SERMs. If it helps, so far nobody I know who takes SERMs has noticed or complained of any hair loss.

If you hate what testosterone is doing to your body, ask yourself which you'd hate more: letting that body wreckage continue, or -maybe- having some slight gynecomastia?

[kuramafox (imported)]

kuramafox I am on CPA and I couldn't tell you whether it gave me gyno or not because I gave myself gyno by several stints of taking estrogen. I don't care about what I've developed so I do nothing to combat it. They haven't gotten any larger just taking CPA and nothing else, and they've lost some sensitivity and a slight amount of size/nipples got less puffy, but at the same time I have no way of knowing whether CPA alone this whole time would have given me any gynecomastia. It certainly hasn't made it worse for me but at the same time I probably have more than I'd ever have developed taking AA's alone.

In regards to hair loss concerns on SERMs (raloxifene, tamoxifene) one thing you could do is cycle them -if- you notice breast development. That way you clear away what little does develop, while lowering risks of negative side-effects from the SERMs. If it helps, so far nobody I know who takes SERMs has noticed or complained of any hair loss.

If you hate what testosterone is doing to your body, ask yourself which you'd hate more: letting that body wreckage continue, or -maybe- having some slight gynecomastia?

Hi, What you said makes complete sense, I guess I'm still at a crossroads right now. Cycling Serms seems like a valid option. Right now Male pattern baldness cessation is at the top of my priorites and I am confident that cypro will help me regrow/stop my hair from getting worse.

The only fear is gyno, I don't mind a bit of puffy nipples, that I can live with. But theres this fear of growing breasts that freaks me out. I have read into gyno surgery and radiation therapy, serms etc. I can do that but honestly I wish there was a workaround for this. Sexual dysfunction doesn't scare me a bit tbh.

How large is your gyno Prism?, is it noticeable to others, could you still pull of looking masculine with your peers and family?.

I wish someone would tell me that they have taken cypro for longer periods of time without any boob development. So far only two people have said that nothing went wrong to I am kinda positive.

I contemplate chemical castration with injections, this way i guess even the oestrogen is somewhat less or neutralised. My depression seems to be getting worse the more I dont do anything about it. So chemically is there no way to block t without gyno? seems so unfair mayn.

Thanks though for your advice, and if there are any Cyproterone acetate users who could chime in on your experiences I would be really happy. Have a nice day people.

[Prismatic (imported)]

Hi, What you said makes complete sense, I guess I'm still at a crossroads right now. Cycling Serms seems like a valid option. Right now Male pattern baldness cessation is at the top of my priorites and I am confident that cypro will help me regrow/stop my hair from getting worse.

The only fear is gyno, I don't mind a bit of puffy nipples, that I can live with. But theres this fear of growing breasts that freaks me out. I have read into gyno surgery and radiation therapy, serms etc. I can do that but honestly I wish there was a workaround for this. Sexual dysfunction doesn't scare me a bit tbh.

How large is your gyno Prism?, is it noticeable to others, could you still pull of looking masculine with your peers and family?.

I wish someone would tell me that they have taken cypro for longer periods of time without any boob development. So far only two people have said that nothing went wrong to I am kinda positive.

I contemplate chemical castration with injections, this way i guess even the oestrogen is somewhat less or neutralised. My depression seems to be getting worse the more I dont do anything about it. So chemically is there no way to block t without gyno? seems so unfair mayn.

Thanks though for your advice, and if there are any Cyproterone acetate users who could chime in on your experiences I would be really happy. Have a nice day people.

Well I'm not sure how to describe exactly how much is there without showing a picture, but there is enough to cup a handful if that makes sense, but not more than that. Not a standard unit of measure but that's about all I can do short of showing it. I haven't measured them and don't have a tape measure handy. However by default it has to be more than it would have been if I had only ever taken anti-androgens and never messed with estrogen. Yet I can still hide them.

(Is it allowed to link to a photo? I don't think my chest looks good but I also don't really care and if it helps put someone's mind at ease about hiding possible gynecomastia then I'm fine with sharing)

In regards to my gyno being noticed by others, it goes unnoticed so long as I try to hide them. I do go through lengths to hide them, like buying work shirts a size or two bigger than necessary, wearing a lot of hoodies, especially zip-up ones, or coats, and wearing one or two t-shirts under anything with them tucked in and held tight by my belt, etc. I hide them with clothing, and when I do that they go unnoticed.

Whether I could still pull off looking masculine with peers and family, I can't answer for sure and it also depends on how you define "masculine". I look somewhere between male and androgynous in a physical sense however that's basically how I like it. With proper clothing my form is hidden pretty well. I don't have a masculine personality at all, and I don't choose to look masculine, I prefer being effeminate. If I wanted to I imagine a haircut and some working out would bring me more in line with the masculine but I look very different from normal males my age.

Rather than assuming that I'm messing with my endocrine system or have some medical condition or something, people tend to just assume that I am younger than I am. I am 27, just days from turning 28, for reference. While that is still young, IMO there is a pretty big difference between a male in their early 20's and in their late 20's, physically speaking, and people assume I'm in my early 20's and I even have some difficulty buying alcohol at times, not that I drink often. People 10 years younger than my mother have said multiple times "I'm old enough to be your mother" and even though they'd be right, they'd have to have given birth to me under the age of 18 to have done so.

I'm a substitute teacher and am constantly exposed to new people old and young at work, giving me many opportunities to have people assume my age. Just this week I was doing a roving sub job, and another sub who was much older acted very impressed that I "at such a young age" could get the degrees I've gotten. I get stuff like this all the time. People assume I must have just graduated from university when that was five years ago, and while I am young it's not a stretch or extra-special accomplishment for a 28 year old to have graduated from college. I have trouble getting respect from kids 6th grade and up (more than others normally would ), especially from the older ones, due to the inaccurate perceived age difference, and I know normal males my age in the same field do not have this issue to nearly the extent I do. The kids around that age also constantly comment on my youth, every single time. As a result I tend to stick to elementary school assignments. I also do so because of the homophobic bulling/harassment/discrimination done all too frequently by the older kids, but that's another story.

I guess to sum it up: I definitely look male, and I don't look abnormal in the way I present myself in public, people just assume I'm younger than I am. I would have to be naked or wearing really revealing clothing for it to be known that something is off about me from a glance.

In regards to family, they don't seem to think anything is off, or at least have never commented on it aside from my mother going "you should cut your hair" all the time (it's long). They've also seen me frequently from the time I started taking these meds a few years ago to now. I definitely look different when looking at photos from back then but the changes are so slow I think the "boiling a frog" effect is at play.

To sum it all up, you should have no problems appearing as a relatively normal male, but considering your age people will probably assume you're younger than you are. That's about it though.

Keep in mind that gynecomastia is also a risk and not a guarantee. Everyone is different. You might wind up with no change, you might get some nipple changes, or you could get some breast development, but I really doubt you could possibly get development that you can't easily hide even in a worst-case-scenario. And if such a scenario begins to unfold, you can cycle in SERMs to deal with it.

[kuramafox (imported)]

Well I'm not sure how to describe exactly how much is there without showing a picture, but there is enough to cup a handful if that makes sense, but not more than that. Not a standard unit of measure but that's about all I can do short of showing it. I haven't measured them and don't have a tape measure handy. However by default it has to be more than it would have been if I had only ever taken anti-androgens and never messed with estrogen. Yet I can still hide them.

(Is it allowed to link to a photo? I don't think my chest looks good but I also don't really care and if it helps put someone's mind at ease about hiding possible gynecomastia then I'm fine with sharing)

In regards to my gyno being noticed by others, it goes unnoticed so long as I try to hide them. I do go through lengths to hide them, like buying work shirts a size or two bigger than necessary, wearing a lot of hoodies, especially zip-up ones, or coats, and wearing one or two t-shirts under anything with them tucked in and held tight by my belt, etc. I hide them with clothing, and when I do that they go unnoticed.

Whether I could still pull off looking masculine with peers and family, I can't answer for sure and it also depends on how you define "masculine". I look somewhere between male and androgynous in a physical sense however that's basically how I like it. With proper clothing my form is hidden pretty well. I don't have a masculine personality at all, and I don't choose to look masculine, I prefer being effeminate. If I wanted to I imagine a haircut and some working out would bring me more in line with the masculine but I look very different from normal males my age.

Rather than assuming that I'm messing with my endocrine system or have some medical condition or something, people tend to just assume that I am younger than I am. I am 27, just days from turning 28, for reference. While that is still young, IMO there is a pretty big difference between a male in their early 20's and in their late 20's, physically speaking, and people assume I'm in my early 20's and I even have some difficulty buying alcohol at times, not that I drink often. People 10 years younger than my mother have said multiple times "I'm old enough to be your mother" and even though they'd be right, they'd have to have given birth to me under the age of 18 to have done so.

I'm a substitute teacher and am constantly exposed to new people old and young at work, giving me many opportunities to have people assume my age. Just this week I was doing a roving sub job, and another sub who was much older acted very impressed that I "at such a young age" could get the degrees I've gotten. I get stuff like this all the time. People assume I must have just graduated from university when that was five years ago, and while I am young it's not a stretch or extra-special accomplishment for a 28 year old to have graduated from college. I have trouble getting respect from kids 6th grade and up (more than others normally would ), especially from the older ones, due to the inaccurate perceived age difference, and I know normal males my age in the same field do not have this issue to nearly the extent I do. The kids around that age also constantly comment on my youth, every single time. As a result I tend to stick to elementary school assignments. I also do so because of the homophobic bulling/harassment/discrimination done all too frequently by the older kids, but that's another story.

I guess to sum it up: I definitely look male, and I don't look abnormal in the way I present myself in public, people just assume I'm younger than I am. I would have to be naked or wearing really revealing clothing for it to be known that something is off about me from a glance.

In regards to family, they don't seem to think anything is off, or at least have never commented on it aside from my mother going "you should cut your hair" all the time (it's long). They've also seen me frequently from the time I started taking these meds a few years ago to now. I definitely look different when looking at photos from back then but the changes are so slow I think the "boiling a frog" effect is at play.

To sum it all up, you should have no problems appearing as a relatively normal male, but considering your age people will probably assume you're younger than you are. That's about it though.

Keep in mind that gynecomastia is also a risk and not a guarantee. Everyone is different. You might wind up with no change, you might get some nipple changes, or you could get some breast development, but I really doubt you could possibly get development that you can't easily hide even in a worst-case-scenario. And if such a scenario begins to unfold, you can cycle in SERMs to deal with it.

Thnx prism, you sound like a really cool and level headed person, would definitely hang out with you, maybe smoke/drink or play ps4 lol. Your younger appearance has probably got to do with the lack of Testosterone and subsequent virilization from years of T destruction, pretty cool mayn. I wonder what age you started taking cpa and for what reason. It would be awesome to live a lifestyle comparable to yours, it sounds pretty much like what I have envisioned for myself, in fact I kinda envy you tbh, lol.

I have to go through this route I guess, I am already on finasteride and in a few months If I see no results ]hair and seborrhea wise I will probably switch to Cpa. I sent you a friend request and If you don't mind you can send me your pictures, I'll be waiting. They will be safe with me and I will only objectively view them for a better perspective on the drug.

You are kinda spot on on the gyno part, but it's such a debilitating side effect especially for me. It sucks that there is no viable alternative. Scared of SERMS to be honest. There are many people who live possibly live with gyno and possibly lead normal healthy lives so It's probably a small side effect to bear depending on the person who can tolerate it. In my case I have a strong psychological aversion towards this side. Worst case scenario, I drop Cpa and go for a gyno reduction/Serm cycle,even radiation therapy maybe.

I hate that I'm losing hair to T, hate the acne and the uncontrollable sex drive/urges. From what you have described you suffered no additional gyno on cpa which is pretty positive if I read your reply properly. Your gyno was probably from the bouts of estrogen you took by my guess.

I have a feeling that Cpa is safe, otherwise why would it be approved for sex offenders/ decreasing sexual urges. I'm not entirely convinced atm, still waiting for more people to chime in.

Thnx for the well thought out reply, if you know anyone personally or on this forums who take Cpa do help me out though. Still need more convincing I guess.

So anyone out there on cpa long term, could really love to hear bout your experiences.

Thnx for reading, have a nice day.

[Paolo]

Yes, you can post a link to a picture hosted elsewhere.