WPATH Standards of Care, version 8

[T van Keel (imported)]

1) For those already castrated: at what age were you castrated AND, in retrospect, if you could do it over, at what age would you have preferred to be castrated?

N/A

2) For those not castrated, but who wish to become a eunuch: what age are you now and at what age would you have preferred to be castrated?

I am 41. Taking into consideration what I know today about castration and also about myself, I think a good age for my nullification would have been between 16 and 19. Unfortunately I wasn't aware of the existance of MtE at that age, so I struggled a lot with my feelings because I could't understand my wish for becoming a nullo, I simply didn't know that MtE is existent, so I wasn't able to handle my feelings.

3) Did you ever think that you were Male-to-Female before you discovered Eunuch as a gender identity? What age were you when you first discovered “eunuch”?

Clearly NO. Being MtF came never across my mind. When I first discovered “eunuch” I was about 12.

4) Did you ever attempt any self surgery? At what age?

Not really. Sometimes I banded my genitals for a few minutes, first time probably aged 14 or 15.

Any additional information about your personal path toward becoming a eunuch would be helpful. Any suggestions that you are willing to make will help to strengthen the SOC.

Since puberty my genitals became a growing source of discomfort to me. At first I had quite much difficulties to understand my interest in castration and growing desire to become a nullo. Things became clearer after I became access to the internet when I was about 25. Then I started to realize I am not alone and things became clearer. The first time in my life I had a name for what I felt all the time. After many years of struggling and fighting against my feelings I realized in 2013 that I need professional help, so I started counseling at a therapist. Unfortunately there are no established standards of care here in Germany, so I still didn't get proper help. This caused massive problems, for example strong depressions and, as a result of that, loss of my job. Things got a little better now, I have a new job and my health also improved. But there is still no big hope that a surgical treatment will be supported in the near future. Now there is a litte progress, the diagnosis GIDNOS is taken into consideration for the first time.

My biggest problem was the lack of information. As a teenager I knew that I was somehow different, but I couldn't identify the problem. I knew about transgender, but the only thing that was clear to me I'm not MtF. The missing knowledge made it impossible for me to identify myself as a MtE transgender. An other problem was to accept my own feelings, as things like a third gender simply didn't exist.

Sometimes it feels like the past 25 years are somehow wasted because I wasn't able to live in the body that feels right for me. I know a castration being still a teenager would have been quite early, but "normal" transgenders today start transitioning at the same age, so I think it is quite probable that my life would have taken a significant better way when my genitals would have been removed at that age.

One last word regarding HRT. In the beginning I thought being without T would be absolutely necessary. Some effects of T I don't like at all, especially the body hair. But when being without T my fear is that feminization and weight gain would start. Both are things I absolutely don't want, so now I think some kind of HRT would be necessary. Maybe some level below normal, but high enough to prevent unwanted effects.

My big hope is that we Eunuchs will soon get the same access to proper treatment as it is already established for other transgender. There are so much parallels, we are not much different to MtF and FtM, so why don't treat us in a similar way?

[JockItch (imported)]

1) Surgically castrated (testicles and scrotum removed) at age 50, which is only about 3 yrs after I first became interested in becoming a eunuch, so I did not have to wait long. Had I developed my desire to be castrated earlier I would have wanted it sooner.

2) N/A

3) Never wanted to be MtoF. I learned about castration in High School but never really wanted to be a eunuch until late 40s.

4) Did you ever attempt any self surgery?

No.

As far as informed consent goes, there are only so many ways you can confirm a person knows they will be rendered infertile after castration. Imposing a lengthy psych counseling requirement could be financially burdensome for some. A waiting period between initial consultation and castration might be considered, as it will weed out some impulse decisions. I had to wait about 4 mo. to get a surgery date from date my Dr. agreed to castrate me, so I had plenty of time to re-think it.

Perhaps have prospective eunuchs write out a letter saying what they understand castration will mean for them, including not being able to father children.

Other effects of castration should be included in consent counseling as well, like loss of sensation from having testicles (and scrotum, if applicable) removed. Sex is less pleasurable now for me without my testicles and scrotum to play with, and I don't think I fully realized how much pleasure sensation involves the balls and scrotum. Also, loss of volume of ejaculate should be covered. I know they say this is same as vasectomy and only results in about a 10% loss of ejaculate but mine seems to be more, perhaps because of less stimulation. This would be in addition to the effects of no testosterone if the eunuch decides not to go with TRT.

[Qunuch81 (imported)]

I'm so glad this conversation's happening. Thanks so much, Jesus, for soliciting our thoughts on this.

1) For those already castrated: at what age were you castrated AND, in retrospect, if you could do it over, at what age would you have preferred to be castrated?

I was castrated by Arnkoff at the age of 33. In fact, I just celebrated my one-year "Eunuchversary." I think I could've done it a bit sooner (31-32) and still have been fine. It was mostly a matter of needing time to get my partner on board.

2) For those not castrated, but who wish to become a eunuch: what age are you now and at what age would you have preferred to be castrated?

N/A

3) Did you ever think that you were Male-to-Female before you discovered Eunuch as a gender identity? What age were you when you first discovered

“eunuch”?

I've never once thought of myself as MTF. However, all my life I've felt "outside of" maleness. I feel a real attraction to qualities that western society has labeled "masculine" and sometimes I even enjoy enacting them myself. I love my beard, for instance, and am into weight training, and have zero interest in growing breasts or undergoing surgery to create labia. But I still don't feel exactly like "a man." This is further complicated by the fact that I enjoy exploring "femme" and "androgynous" gender expressions from time-to-time, AND I want to go nullo some day. I'm definitely outside of the binary; rather than being male or female, I think of myself as varying degrees of "butch" or "femme" on a given day. If I have to pick a label, eunuch fits, and so does genderqueer, gender fluid, agender. Hell, sometimes even "male" fits. Like everyone else, it's impossible to squeeze myself into one box.

I discovered voluntary eunuchs and nullos in my mid-20s and there was no turning back.

4) Did you ever attempt any self surgery? At what age?

Nope. I played with an elastrator as a masturbatory tool, but I never left it on long enough to cause damage. I think 20-30 minutes was my record. Hardly a high score.

Any additional information about your personal path toward becoming a eunuch would be helpful. Any suggestions that you are willing to make will help to strengthen the SOC.

I concur with LoseThem and many others that the SOC should not require a trial run on hormone blockers. If somebody's motivation is asexuality or to become a eunuch who doesn't take HRT, I think a good therapist would push for such a trial run, but if there needs to be a unified, general SOC, leave that out. Like so many of us, I had zero interest in going without replacement T. Admittedly, I briefly flirted with the idea of trying out chem castration, but it was more because I felt I needed to do something castration-related or else I'd explode. Fortunately, I got my appointment with Arnkoff around then so there was never a need to try out chem.

Fertility discussions should happen, I suppose. It was never an issue with me because I've never wanted kids and never will.

Having discussions with countless eunuchs and nullos on the EA and on MBM helped me immensely, as did working with a therapist who's versed in trans issues (he was just at the Amsterdam WPATH, in fact). I think part of the SOC should involve some counseling with a therapist who has an understanding of the unique motivations, needs, and experiences of our community. I'd advocate a minimum 3-6 months of therapy before getting a letter. The therapy sessions should, in my opinion, accomplish two primary goals--

1) Help the client clarify for himself why he wants this procedure. Gender issues? Asexuality? An aesthetic body mod? Sexual fetish? Or does it come from a really bad place of "I need to punish myself because I'm 'not man enough'" or something similar. More than likely it's a combination of many factors. I know that figuring out my gender issues and my preferred sexual proclivities really helped clarify things for me.

2) Educate the client. I think informed consent simply means knowing the health risks, the irreversibility of the decision, and the psychological impact.

"Forcing" the client to spend 3-6 months talking through his desire in person will probably help guide him in whatever the right direction is. Keep in mind that for most of us, this was either something we kept locked in our heads or only discussed on the EA, through the lens of a computer screen. Discussing it out loud with somebody who isn't going to judge you or try to have you committed helps a lot.

[Losethem (imported)]

"Forcing" the client to spend 3-6 months talking through his desire in person will probably help guide him in whatever the right direction is. Keep in mind that for most of us, this was either something we kept locked in our heads or only discussed on the EA, through the lens of a computer screen. Discussing it out loud with somebody who isn't going to judge you or try to have you committed helps a lot.

I'm working with a guy in the Northwest US that has been treated horribly by therapists thus far. I think his issue has been seeing the wrong type of therapist. He said any time he brings up the idea he wishes to have his genitals removed, the therapist would immediately start treating him differently and threaten having him committed. After talking to him a bit, I told him he was likely seeing the wrong kind of therapist and that he needed to seek help from a therapist that deals with gender non-conforming issues. I've since, with the help of an other soon to be nullo, pointed him in the direction of such a person in his area.

He has been so scared to approach that he asked I approach the suggested therapist first and ask about things. I told him I would (and I did), but that he was going to have to do this himself and that I couldn't act as a proxy. At this point, I'm not sure if he has contacted or not as it's only been a week since I let him know the therapist was interested in speaking with him.

My point in bringing this up is, we need to concentrate on getting these people pointed to the right kind of help. There is a lot of misinformation out there, and this is a prime example. Even doctors don't know where to send patients that bring this up, they need to learn where to send them.

I hope the guy I've been chatting with does go see this therapist. I feel very badly for him and know he needs some help. He's not likely to self-harm, but he's incredibly skittish because the medical professionals he's run into thus far label him crazy or worse.

--LT

[erikboy (imported)]

1) not castrated yet.

2) 42 now. And I think that age 15-16 would have been the right age, if I had plenty of information, mentor, trial period to feel what it really meant and no big social pressures to behave like or look like everybody else. Then I would have been mentally ready for castration and happiest person in the world.

3) I have never thought about being Male-to-Female. For me male and female gender roles always seemed kind of strange (I understand reproductive logic of course), sexuality (sex drive) has always been something that is not an integral part of me, attatched to me forcefully that I have to endure, still at times I can feel quite lustful. And I never felt like I want to become masculine. I don't like beard and moustache, I wear clothes that do not stress my masculinity. I am just me, not a masculine male. I remember that when my legs started to get hairy it made me feel very unhappy, it caused me intense discomfort, so that I shaved my legs but that made things worse and I just kept my legs covered. In fact any additional bodyhair that appeared on my body made me feel unhappy, may be except pubes. I was 12 or 13 when I first learned about eunuchs, but it really didn't ring any bells. At 15 suddenly I developed intense interest in eunuchs and a thought that it would be right to become an eunuch, There was something magical in act of castration that always aroused me sexually, but my interest didn't stop with the act. I imagined myself without all that sexdrive and sexuality that was attached to me and it felt kind of right. But back then I thought I am the only weirdo in the world and tried not to think about impossible stuff.

4) Well, I didn't attempt exactly self surgery, but at age 22 I was very close to killing my balls exactly the same way like Trentag lately did. I put rubber band around my balls and cooled them down to about 10 degrees above freezing and kept them this way for 1,5h. Obviously there wasn't much pain and if I kept them tied off for longer I would have ended up in emergency room which I didn't want to happen. I did this several times. I became so afraid about ending in emergency ward that I stopped any further attempts.

Regarding fertility, if MtoE person is young enough, at least some sperm must be frozen for future. When I was 25 I had no great desire to have my own children. Later, at age 35 desire to have my own children grew to irresistible urge. I would say that without my own children I would have been very unhappy now. And having children made me feel 'complete'. They bring me joy every single day. And damn, I am so proud about them!

So, yea,

[erikboy (imported)]

It seems kind of symptomatic that people start to notice their gender identity or its difference from normal during puberty. For MtoE person life before puberty seems exactly ideal, as children before puberty are naturally eunuchs, person without excessive sexual desire or without pronounced gender behaviour. It is difficult thus to detect MtoE person before puberty. Many people here, including me, think that it would have been ideal for them to become an eunuch at their teens. Years between their teens and actual castration have been full of doubt, self hatred, confusion, uncerntainty. If I think of myself, it would have been ideal if EA was around during my early teens, so I knew that MtoE people exist and that I might be one of them. Then the next step would have been finding a real life mentor or counselor that I trusted and could openly discuss all related issues including chemical castration and stopping or delaying puberty. For MtoE there are obvious health issues that do not exist for MTF or FTM persons, as later in their lives they will mature physically as Females or Males without any problems. If MtoE persons puberty is stopped very early, eunuchoid gigantism may developed or voice remained high pitched. Still chemical castration would buy time for MtoE person to discuss and understood his options experience eunuchdom and proceed accordingly, making informed decisions. Becoming an eunuch early for MtoE person is as important for MtoF or FtoM person in order to live happy life.

[T van Keel (imported)]

My point in bringing this up is, we need to concentrate on getting these people pointed to the right kind of help. There is a lot of misinformation out there, and this is a prime example. Even doctors don't know where to send patients that bring this up, they need to learn where to send them.

Even though my doctors are well aware of my case, they have great difficulty to give me proper help. They simply don't know how to proceed. All available standards are not really applicable to me, because I'm wether MtF nor FtM, so they wonder what to do. Furthermore, they point out there is no evidence that a castration is able to help me, so it is very hard to find a way towards this. Years go by, but things are moving only very little. The doctors recognize my problem very well, but nevertheless they can't give me the help I need. It's really disappointing and makes me often feel bad.

[Qunuch81 (imported)]

My point in bringing this up is, we need to concentrate on getting these people pointed to the right kind of help. There is a lot of misinformation out there, and this is a prime example. Even doctors don't know where to send patients that bring this up, they need to learn where to send them.

GNC people are becoming much more visible. Jesus mentioned that non-binary genders were a robust topic of discussion in Amsterdam. My therapist works with a lot of trans folk and had worked with one other eunuch wannabe previously. My endocrinologist who prescribes my HRT is a trans woman who works with clients who are all over the gender map.

Even though eunuchs and nullos may not register in the public consciousness when people think about trans folk, I think a lot of people are at least becoming somewhat aware of GNC. My point is that the general consciousness seems to be shifting, especially inside WPATH. It's essential for doctors and therapists who want to have a background in sex/gender health to know enough about people like us, and if papers are being written and panels are being presented, I think the medical establishment's stigmatization of GNC people will begin lessening in the near future. People in the profession should encourage more of this kind of research.

[InkedFutureNullo (imported)]

(1) Castrated surgically in a hospital, by a urologist, days before my 49th birthday. In retrospect, I wish I had been castrated at least a decade earlier, perhaps even in my 20s, had non-binary genders been better understood--including by me.

(2) N/A

(3) I never considered myself MTF, but I never felt truly male. In fact, I did some stupid things to "prove my manhood," like enlisting in the Army Reserve. The one thing I do remember along those lines, from some of my earliest sexual thoughts, I was being penetrated by men from the front, yet I was clearly *not* a woman. Once my weight gets down to meet surgical requirements, that's going to happen. I will remain non-binary, however. Specifically, I identify as third gender. Because our culture has so little understanding of gender identities outside the binary, it took me until age 47-48 to grasp that I wasn't some unexplainable freak, and that I was actually *neither* male nor female. Again, this would have become clear to me at a much younger age, if only our culture had grasped such things earlier. As far as a eunuch identity, I knew the testicles had to go by my early to mid 40s, with increasing awareness and urgency.

(4) I did not attempt self-surgery, but I attempted various DIY means of trying to kill off the testicles that were attached to me.

For me, going on several months' trial of androgen blockers would not have accomplished much of use, aside from the degree to which they might have further shrunken the testicles attached to me. My focus wasn't on being without testosterone, but rather on being without the much-hated objects attached to me, that never should have been there from birth. I still suffer from dysphoria EVERY DAY regarding the penis attached to me, but at least it is shrinking some as a result of zero testosterone and low-dose estrogen. Since it IS a matter of huge dysphoria about the genitals currently attached to my body, I've no idea how I would ever go through a "full time living" test. It's not as if there's some magic pill out there that will make the penis still attached to me go away as a "test run."

Those of us who are non-binary gendered still present a challenge to professionals. I still wear a full beard, and so far have no intention of changing that fact. That strong "male signifier" was a bit of a hangup for my therapist and my medical professionals at first. At the same time, I am making other changes to my body to become more ambiguous in terms of gender presentation. When I finally get rid of the penis attached to me, I hope to have it inverted, but without the external labia, etc., of a woman. I'm aiming toward having no external genitals (a nullo), but having a sexually usable hole.

[Qunuch81 (imported)]

Those of us who are non-binary gendered still present a challenge to professionals. I still wear a full beard, and so far have no intention of changing that fact. That strong "male signifier" was a bit of a hangup for my therapist and my medical professionals at first. At the same time, I am making other changes to my body to become more ambiguous in terms of gender presentation. When I finally get rid of the penis attached to me, I hope to have it inverted, but without the external labia, etc., of a woman. I'm aiming toward having no external genitals (a nullo), but having a sexually usable hole.

We have a lot in common. I too have no interest in having labia, and am quite attached to my beard! One of the first therapists I spoke to about my dysphoria asked me if I "liked having a beard" and when I said yes, that seemed to be enough evidence for her that I wasn't a good candidate for orchiectomy. ::eye roll::

Definitely feeling dysphoria around my penis the same way I did around my balls. It just hit several months ago and hasn't gone away. I admitted to BossTamsin in April that I've accepted going nullo is "a question of when, not if" and that felt good to say.

While I'm not interested in making changes to my body to appear more androgynous (other than the "minor detail" of a penectomy, LOL), I've been looking at all these gorgeous, masculine men at Pride who have beards and hairy chests but are also wearing make-up and dangly earrings and I'm thinking "Yes, that's exactly it. Sign me up."

PS: You mentioned joining the Army to prove your masculinity. I almost did that. Fortunately, lots of weightlifting and doing MMA for a couple years scratched that itch for me. I still exercise, but not with the goal of looking like Gerard Butler in 300.