Gay Marriage

[kristoff]

i have a bit of a mixed feeling on the gay marriage issue. I'm ok with gays being married.

i'm just not ok with the ramming it down people throats especially forcing businesses to accept doing something they HONESTLY feel opposed to.

We want them to accept our marriage because we HONESTLY love each other. Yet we would force them to go against their HONEST religious beliefs.

there are plenty of bakers and photographers, etc that would welcome the chance to do a gay wedding. And they would that wedding service with love and respect.

So why in the world would you to force a business that would do a terrible job not so much on purpose but more likely because their hearts and soul is not into during that service.

And what is seldom mentioned is many of these businesses gladly serve the gay community just not for a wedding. So in truth they are not anti gay just anti the marriage part.

I guess my point is by all means get married if that is what you want. But don't start it off and ruin that special day by forcing someone to be there or doing a service for you.

That is not the way to get people to understand and accept it. Instead be the bigger person and show them your love in spite of their beliefs.

You are suggesting that we cave in to and acquiesce to bigotry. No thanks. I'll force an issue. If you hold yourself out to the public for service, you hold yourself out to everyone. Otherwise, you'll see signs saying "No Irish," or "No blacks," or whatever. Right is right for all.

[Dave (imported)]

There's a distinction between certain "refusals" that isn't apparent.

In a recent new story, there was a t-shirt company that refused to print a gay-pride message on t-shirts. The courts ruled in favor of that business. The buyer lost five minutes and went elsewhere.

With the bakery case, the wedding participants had been through a tasting and were well into the ordering process when the bakeries discovered it was a same-sex wedding and refused. the buyers had hours and most of the wedding party involved when the refusal came. There was no offer of placing them at another bakery. There was simply the refusal and asking the customer to leave and never come back. They were simply unwanted customers and deserving of a denial of service.

The same with the florist. The florist cancelled after flowers, colors and bouquets were picked and specified. The florist said "we don't!" and just walked away. No passing off the business stop anyone else just a "go away" and start over. Again, unwanted customers worthy only of a denial of service.

So the question comes down to this:

1) Can a business post a sign that says: "we don't serve ZZZ" ?

2) Is the institution of marriage two-tiered. That is, do married men and women get more benefits than same sex partners? IS the same-sex marriage inherently different and lesser than marriage between a man and a woman?

3) When do the rights of one individual take precedence over another person's rights? This is not a trivial question. In a society that says "all men and women are created equal" how does society justify lesser rights for LGBT people than heterosexual people? Does my right to practice religion take precedent over your right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"? OR the right to free speech? Or the right to assemble?

These aren't trivial questions but these are the issues that are being decided in these oral arguments.

[nvrgag44 (imported)]

NOTE: the political section is dead however there are a couple topics that are of public interest, this is one of them.

Oh, now I get it.

[jacb1951 (imported)]

You are suggesting that we cave in to and acquiesce to bigotry. No thanks. I'll force an issue. If you hold yourself out to the public for service, you hold yourself out to everyone. Otherwise, you'll see signs saying "No Irish," or "No blacks," or whatever. Right is right for all.

No one is calling for signs like No Irish No blacks. And no offensive to Dave but i never heard that story on the bakery or flowers. Just the opposite i heard the bakery said they would be happy to suggest another bakery as well as bake them anything for any other occasion. I guess it depends on what news service you get your news from.

Let me make my point another way.

which do you prefer ?

1 ) having your cake made by someone who cares about your marriage and wants to do it right. So you have a wonderful wedding, enjoying that special day.

2 ) forcing someone to make a half-ass cake , ruining your day, and collecting a ton of money.

As much as i like money i had the pleasure of having a co-worker make my cake. ( she did that stuff as a side job ) she did an awesome job. It was done lovingly and it had special meaning to my marriage that kept in my heart forever. No money could equal that. And certainly i would never have wanted to force someone to do it.

[kristoff]

No one is calling for signs like No Irish No blacks. And no offensive to Dave but i never heard that story on the bakery or flowers. Just the opposite i heard the bakery said they would be happy to suggest another bakery as well as bake them anything for any other occasion. I guess it depends on what news service you get your news from.

Let me make my point another way.

which do you prefer ?

1 ) having your cake made by someone who cares about your marriage and wants to do it right. So you have a wonderful wedding, enjoying that special day.

2 ) forcing someone to make a half-ass cake , ruining your day, and collecting a ton of money.

As much as i like money i had the pleasure of having a co-worker make my cake. ( she did that stuff as a side job ) she did an awesome job. It was done lovingly and it had special meaning to my marriage that kept in my heart forever. No money could equal that. And certainly i would never have wanted to force someone to do it.

You're playing emotions and sensitivity versus legalities. If he were forced and made a bad cake, there are repercussions to be had. I might force an issue, yet go elsewhere. You don't stop reprehensible actions by caving into them. Your religion has no place in open commerce when you are holding yourself out to the public.

[jacb1951 (imported)]

You're playing emotions and sensitivity versus legalities. If he were forced and made a bad cake, there are repercussions to be had. I might force an issue, yet go elsewhere. You don't stop reprehensible actions by caving into them. Your religion has no place in open commerce when you are holding yourself out to the public.

Not my religion i'm not Catholic in fact i'm ELCA Lutheran which is very tolerant towards gays. And i consider myself bi-sexual.

But i acknowledge that there are some people who hold a much deeper sense of religion then i do. For those people they want nothing to do with a gay marriage based on their religious belief. Such devotion goes beyond laws of man. You could burn them at the stake and still would hold to that belief.

As for commerce they are pursing the job they love and are skilled at doing. In some cases even following in the family business.

But again my question to you is why would you want to force someone to do a job against their religion when there are plenty of people willing to do you the same service and probably be even better at it. It just doesn't make sense to me. I love it when i find a place that wants my business. And i shrug it off when i find a place that doesn't want me. I don't get all whiny about it. I don't try and sue them over it. All things become even in the end. Life is not worth it.

In fact some day these same Christians might make similar demands on a gay baker. Maybe they'll want a Christian theme cake with anti gay bible quotes on it.

[Dave (imported)]

The answer is, of course, that the Marketplace of Business has no religion and the USA is a secular society, not a religious society.

[jacb1951 (imported)]

The answer is, of course, that the Marketplace of Business has no religion and the USA is a secular society, not a religious society.

not sure who's question you're answering but it wasn't mine.

My question was meant for Kristoff and it had nothing to do with your answer.

But again my question to Kristoff

is why would you want to force someone to do a job against their religion when there are plenty of people willing to do you the same service and probably be even better at it.

i dont see where that question would be answered by your answer.

anyway good luck to you Dave.

[Dave (imported)]

Your is one of the most fascinating response I've ever gotten to a post.

I'll just say "OK" and let the discussion remain as it is.

[kristoff]

Sometimes it is not worth rising to the answer, for there is no understanding or grasp of the point of action.