Things I believe but can't prove and other things that bother me.

purpletomato (imported)
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Re: Things I believe but can't prove and other things that bother me.

Post by purpletomato (imported) »

uh, wow, lot of spite there, punkypink. someone's got a bone to pick with the world :). Though, please try to interpret what I'm writing less argumentatively -- for example, I was most certainly arguing that individuals with gender identity issues should have access to surgery, not being forced to undergo surgery. It is a little annoying. I'm not against you, just exploring a subject.

I wasn't specifically thinking of genital surgery, when I said surgery to make one pass easier -- I was thinking of things like trachea shaves. I think people will always gender eachother somewhat by visual appearance, and personally, I'm okay getting something like a trachea shave if it makes people interpret me as whatever desired gender I eventually take on.

I haven't been on this forum long enough to know you, but if you are like the so-called "transgenderist" folk, I'd say you have a feminine gender identity with no / less genital-related body identity issues.
Elizabeth (imported)
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Re: Things I believe but can't prove and other things that bother me.

Post by Elizabeth (imported) »

There is some controversy about this within the transsexual community. Some believe that keeping it a mental illness is a good thing, because many insurance companies will pay for the cost of transition, as long as it's an illness. If it were to be removed from the DSM, then insurance would no longer pay and it would be considered cosmetic surgery. It would also be less scrutinized, like breast implants.

Elizabeth
A-1 (imported)
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Re: Things I believe but can't prove and other things that bother me.

Post by A-1 (imported) »

Elizabeth, dear Elizabeth...

It is like this. If YOU can prove it to be true, you know it. You do not believe it.

If you cannot PROVE it, it is O.K. to believe it.

On the other hand, if you can prove it to be false, then you can still believe it.

You just no longer know that it is true.

Most of the trouble in the world today comes from the confusion over facts and beliefs.

Beliefs are NEVER rational or provable. If something can be believed, it is not necessary to PROVE it to be true.

Beliefs in things arise from FAITH, not from empirically proving things to be a FACT...

If you can understand this, then you will have PEACE in your life.

O.K.?
punkypink (imported)
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Re: Things I believe but can't prove and other things that bother me.

Post by punkypink (imported) »

purpletomato (imported) wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:11 am uh, wow, lot of spite there, punkypink. someone's got a bone to pick with the world :). Though, please try to interpret what I'm writing less argumentatively -- for example, I was most certainly arguing that individuals with gender identity issues should have access to surgery, not being forced to undergo surgery. It is a little annoying. I'm not against you, just exploring a subject.

I wasn't specifically thinking of genital surgery, when I said surgery to make one pass easier -- I was thinking of things like trachea shaves. I think people will always gender eachother somewhat by visual appearance, and personally, I'm okay getting something like a trachea shave if it makes people interpret me as whatever desired gender I eventually take on.

I haven't been on this forum long enough to know you, but if you are like the so-called "transgenderist" folk, I'd say you have a feminine gender identity with no / less genital-related body identity issues.

Transgenderist? That's a new term to me. Care to share what it means as you've encountered it?

In any case it isn't spite, it's passion against ignorance and injustice. Even surgery like trachea shaves, should be gotten because the person wants it, not because it appeases the rest of society's idea of womanhood. There is no benefit whatsoever with superficiality, and a lot of harmful consequences to it, so any sort of validation of superficiality is never going to sit well with me. I am not the sort who writes long bipartisan essays when it comes to things like superficiality. I am passionate about the cause of non-superficiality, even if it may come across as spite. And really, it isn't a bone if it is a genuine injustice. That is a bit like saying a woman back during the suffrage has a bone to pick with the world because they are passionate in arguing that they have equal rights as men.
purpletomato (imported)
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Re: Things I believe but can't prove and other things that bother me.

Post by purpletomato (imported) »

Transgenderist means MtF externally, without changing male genitalia to female genitalia. The term's been out there; I first saw it in Ekins' The Transgender Phenomenon, and later in some "transgender overview" videos (which were part of a vocal training series iirc). I personally dislike the use of grammatically-insignificant suffixes ("-ist" in this case) to give new meaning to a word, but I guess if it's already out there, might as well use it.

Just because someone makes a decision to pass as society's image of female does not imply they are making a superficial decision. Besides, some things like adam's apple growth is biological (i.e. on average, males have a more pronounced adam's apple); in this case, "being more female" is not just a social image thing.

You object to what you call "superficiality". But, to elaborate, how does this relate to surgery specifically? Would you say someone should not apply makeup, unless they had genuine makeup-specific interest, to "pass" as well?
punkypink (imported)
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Re: Things I believe but can't prove and other things that bother me.

Post by punkypink (imported) »

since women both cis and trans wear makeup(and even some men use it too), i would say that it is not just something that is done to pass.

I wouldn't object someone having surgery to pass, but that does not mean I do not see it as a sort of necessary evil. Unless it is more as a result of BDD or BID, where there is a genuine psychological issue if they have to continue to live with it. Otherwise it is actually, much a social image thing. I suppose IF society could see that superficial appearances don't matter, then anything someone did to alter their looks would much less be a validation of a belief system that is ignorant and obselete. Perhaps we're at a point in the timeline of humanity where we have to make some personal sacrifices for a better future.

As for transgenderist, interesting term but not necessary I think. Trans sexual for me already denotes someone who was born with a gender - sex that are different to each other. Those who also psychologically need physical changes are dysmorphic trans sexuals, those who don't, like me, are non-dysmorphic trans sexuals. A term like transgenderist hardly explains anything, and seems to push us back under the broad umbrella of trans genderism, which seems to include non-trans individuals like transvestites and crossdressers whose sex and gender actually match up.

Besides, if anything, MtF externally would include the genitals wouldn't it? Internal would be more about the psychological, and frankly I'm far more a woman than some poor ignorant trans woman who thinks it's all about what's between the legs. I've met people like that. Here is one extract from a trans woman I know's blog:

I use to be the only GF in his life, the 2nd woman, until that woman came into his life one year ago, she overtook my position and I became the third. Sometimes, I feel like the spare. I feel like the one coming between them both instead. I feel like the one who is being kicked into the cold palace, now that there is a new one. All the sweet nothings and love showered on her now, I’m just like looking at myself when we first started. But everything changed place now and is showered on her now.

And of course, I’m the ultimate loser. Because she got a pussy, the ultimate weapon to capture every man’s dick.

Do excuse her grammar and spelling. The sort of superficial sentiments about what it takes to be a woman attractive to a man in her head should be clear enough. And frankly she isn't the only poor deluded fool in the trans community who has that dumb idea.

Well I think we won't bother using transgenderist for the reasons I've outlined above, but no you're not wrong about me being a girl who isn't bothered with what I was given physically.
Elizabeth (imported)
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Re: Things I believe but can't prove and other things that bother me.

Post by Elizabeth (imported) »

A-1 (imported) wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:38 am Elizabeth, dear Elizabeth...

It is like this. If YOU can prove it to be true, you know it. You do not believe it.

If you cannot PROVE it, it is O.K. to believe it.

On the other hand, if you can prove it to be false, then you can still believe it.

You just no longer know that it is true.

Most of the trouble in the world today comes from the confusion over facts and beliefs.

Beliefs are NEVER rational or provable. If something can be believed, it is not necessary to PROVE it to be true.

Beliefs in things arise from FAITH, not from empirically proving things to be a FACT...

If you can understand this, then you will have PEACE in your life.

O.K.?

To me it's more of an acceptance that "truth" is not a universal constant. What may be true for me, may not be true for someone else. What I consider irrefutable evidence can be unbelievable to someone else. It's just a respect for the right of others to have their own truth, without either of us being a liar.

Elizabeth
Elizabeth (imported)
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Re: Things I believe but can't prove and other things that bother me.

Post by Elizabeth (imported) »

purpletomato (imported) wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:03 pm Transgenderist means MtF externally, without changing male genitalia to female genitalia. The term's been out there; I first saw it in Ekins' The Transgender Phenomenon, and later in some "transgender overview" videos (which were part of a vocal training series iirc). I personally dislike the use of grammatically-insignificant suffixes ("-ist" in this case) to give new meaning to a word, but I guess if it's already out there, might as well use it.

Just because someone makes a decision to pass as society's image of female does not imply they are making a superficial decision. Besides, some things like adam's apple growth is biological (i.e. on average, males have a more pronounced adam's apple); in this case, "being more female" is not just a social image thing.

You object to what you call "superficiality". But, to elaborate, how does this relate to surgery specifically? Would you say someone should not apply makeup, unless they had genuine makeup-specific interest, to "pass" as well?

I am not so sure that we need so many labels. As you describe a transgenderist, I would be one. But without knowing the reason(s) I have not transitioned, how could one know? My understanding of what a transgenderist is, is that it is a person who chooses to live as a woman, but does not have surgery or take hormones as a matter of choice. Then we have to get into that whole "what is a choice" thing? It's pretty much downhill from there. As far as I am concerned, I am a woman. I am not transsexual, I am not transgender, I am not a transgenderist. I am a woman. The other labels are for others to label me something they find more suitable. Not to actually describe me in any meaningful way.

Elizabeth
Elizabeth (imported)
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Re: Things I believe but can't prove and other things that bother me.

Post by Elizabeth (imported) »

One of the things that really bother me is Neural Linguistic Programming or NLP. It is the science of using language as a psychological tool to manipulate people. It is not voodoo or superstition, it is a proven method. Salesmen use it, it's called a "pitch" and it's not just telling you the good points. It's about changing your behavior, specifically your resistance to buying, with words. However the idea generated a lot more interest when people started writing books telling young men how to use these techniques to pick up girls. How complimenting a girls friend will make that girl more likely to want to please you or how pointing out some small flaw a woman has after complimenting her will leave her wanting to prove herself to you, while disarming her.

Now keeping that in mind I want to tell you a little story. My former brother in law, I'll call him G, used to work as my apprentice. Now several times a day, before work, morning coffee break, lunch, and afternoon coffee break, we would share a newspaper switching sections as the day went on. Now I don't want to disparage G in anyway because he was a really good guy. Not only a really nice person, but a hard worker and an honest person. But G was just not that smart. I would guess his IQ somewhere in the low 90's, and basically a functional illiterate. While he could read and write and do basic math, his vocabulary was limited as were his cognitive abilities. And what I found out after a while was that we could read the same exact article but get two completely different things out of it.

You see, when people are reading and they see a word they don't recognize, they don't go and look it up, at least most don't. What they do is skip over the word and it's flagged as "the word I don't know" and the reading goes on. However, those with limited vocabulary end up skipping over a lot of words and the end result is that they don't walk away and say "wow, I didn't really understand that article". Instead they walk away with the meaning of the article with all the words they skipped over. So if one can predict the literacy level of ones constituents, one can send them a message that is different than the one your opponents who are more literate are getting.

So it's becomes pretty obvious why political parties, news channels, candidates that cater to the less literate, would be interested in NLP. And that is what we have going on right now. If one looks at the laws that Republicans pass when it power, compared to what they say when running, it's obvious they are two different things, yet people continue to vote for them, even though it's against their own interests.

It's not an accident that American schools controlled by mostly christian school boards are keeping the kids stupid, it's necessary. And it's not a coincedence that the Republican electorate are just not as smart(as a group), than their counterparts either Democratic or Independent and also leads to prejudice.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/study-su ... d-in-hand/

Study Suggests Low IQ, Social Conservatism, And Prejudice Go Hand In Hand

by Frances Martel | 3:51 pm, January 28th, 2012

Are claims that conservatism is “anti-science” as valid as those that science is “anti-conservative?” No one has really asked or found an answer, but a new study from Brock University in Ontario will be sure to spark that very conversation. Psychologists have found that racism and general prejudice as well as social conservatism are linked to low IQ levels.

According to Live Science, the claim is not a Colbertian “reality has a well-known liberal bias” claim, but one that those with low IQ levels tend to gravitate to simpler worldviews, that can lead to prejudice and adherence to a rigid mindset:

The research finds that children with low intelligence are more likely to hold prejudiced attitudes as adults. These findings point to a vicious cycle, according to lead researcher Gordon Hodson, a psychologist at Brock University in Ontario. Low-intelligence adults tend to gravitate toward socially conservative ideologies, the study found. Those ideologies, in turn, stress hierarchy and resistance to change, attitudes that can contribute to prejudice, Hodson wrote in an email to LiveScience.

The point is not to disparage, but to bring awareness. I find it upsetting when I hear that men are voting Republican because they think it's unmanly to vote Democrat or because they are afraid members of their church won't approve. Our system can't work like that. The point is to wake up and pay attention to what politicians do and not what they say. These guys are hiring professionals at NLP to write speeches and position papers for them and it's not just Republicans doing it.

People are being programmed to accept fascism and are welcoming it with open arms calling it freedom.

Elizabeth
Elizabeth (imported)
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Re: Things I believe but can't prove and other things that bother me.

Post by Elizabeth (imported) »

Is this what the Republicans have come down to? No compassion for fellow human beings? Turn away from hospitals those who have no insurance by no fault of their own. Why should everyone else have to pay for someone who would not buy insurance? Republican now applaud the idea of withholding medical care from those who can not afford it. If they die? Too bad. The Republicans have put profit above all else. The rich must be allowed to make a large amount of money and pay virtually no taxes. No compassion for the poor or disabled. Too bad, you should have been born to rich parents. How stupid of you. And even though no one could possibly live on minimum wage, the Republicans want to lower it because Americans just want to make too much money. While CEO pay has now gone insane.

How long can they hide behind "God helps those who help themselves"? Forget that Jesus' whole ministry was about feeding and healing the poor, what he really wanted to do was to only help rich people and let the poor people die.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... thers.html

Even Neanderthals took care of their disabled and sick. It seems the Republicans have given up their humanity in exchange for chasing profits and hording more than they could ever use, just for the sake of having it, while hundreds of millions live in poverty in this country. Half of the country is on Food Stamps and the Republicans want to give the rich more tax cuts and pay for it by cutting the budgets of agency's that pay for food and healthcare for the poor. This is what it means to be a Republican now. Tell your neighbor to go fuck himself, you will never help him or pay for his medical care, even if some tragedy befalls him. Your stuff is for you. Let him get his own stuff.

Compassion is what our humanity is all about. It's about a belief that each and every person is important. More important than money or things. The Republican party has lost it's way and I hope the country does not follow. Chasing the past will not work. It never has. It's an illusion. Morality can not be legislated into reality. Morality comes from a belief that we are all better off with each other, than alone. Those with all the wealth no longer feel this way. And they have half the country so afraid that someone is going to take their stuff, that they agree to any intrusion of rights, not matter how severe. And if all that were not enough, they justify their selfishness and hording by accusing anyone who is not rich of being lazy. Come on? Half the country is not lazy. Black people are not lazy. Hispanic people are not lazy. There are no jobs available that a person can work without specialized training that most people can not afford. Most minimum wage jobs do not have insurance and are usually less than 30 hours. But even those jobs are hard to come by.

The reason the jobs have left our country is because of a policy of globalization which allows any country, no matter how poor, to place their products in our country with no tariffs. The whole idea of tarriffs was to generate revenue by making those who want to sell in our markets pay to do so. It was the governments major source of income until the income tax became official and legal. Policies that allowed Companies to not pay taxes on money they made outside the US as long as they don't being the money back. Free trade agreements, WTO, Most Favored Nation, are all ways for people who don't make crap, to take your job because they could work cheaper because they don't have a $1500 a month house payment. Changing these policies is what will change the job situation. Jobs are still leaving, as we speak. Nothing has changed. It's how we set up our government that decides how the money gets divided up. Right now it's out of balance and the middle class is running out of money. That will stop the economic machine for everyone. If you think this is corporate slavery, wait until you see what is coming.

And for those of you who remember what it was like before the clean air act or the clean water act, It's shameful that Republicans are trying to shut down the EPA so corporations can pollute more to maximize profits. It's disgusting watching them sell out our clean water and air for profit. All regulation is not bad as the Republicans would like you to believe. Lots of regulations are needed because of the legal wrangling of corporations. Everything has to spelled out without being confusing. But instead think about this. Every regulation was derived from something that happened that should not have. It's how we set the rules for how business is done with everyone having the same rules. Are there some bad or contradicting regulations? Sure, but that does not mean all regulation is bad.

Elizabeth
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