We now spend 25% of our GDP, not to prevent death, but only to delay it. That seems disproportionally huge to me considering what we get. Let me go back, I am getting ahead of myself. I am an existentialist ideally, and libertarian realistically. Meaning simply that I don't live in a society where existentialists could exist in their purest sense. But having said that, I don't have any religious beliefs at all and I do not believe I am here for some purpose.
I consider myself to be a sentient piece of matter. The emergent property of self realization is simply a product of intelligence. Any intelligent being intelligent enough to figure out that they are an intelligent being, in the universe and that they have a finite existence, will become sentient.
So as far as I am concerned what ever happens is only going to happen in my universe, that happens in my head. If other people have an existence outside of the universe in my head, I am not aware of it. So about 100 years after I die, everyone who ever knew me personally will be dead. My existence will have no significance in any way that will matter because in the end, all humans are going to die at some point. And when everyone is dead, nobody's existence will mean anything to anyone.
Why not just enjoy what life one has and not worry so much about how much time we have left and live everyday as if it were your last, because it just might be. There are a lot of people who died today that thought it was going to be an ordinary day.
Elizabeth
Why the need to live a long life?
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Elizabeth (imported)
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StefanIsMe (imported)
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Re: Why the need to live a long life?
I'm not a very smart guy, so my rebuttal won't have much weight, but here's what I think causes the problem.
I'm not into organized religion at all, and although I do tend towards seeing things similarly to you (that my own brain's understanding of the universe is solitary and 'different' than anyone elses), I also wish for / imagine a spiritual 'life' after death. For me, though, the guiding idea is "I Don't Know". Does conciousness just shut off upon death? Is there pure nothingness? Would that be scary (experiencing 'nothingness') or irrelevant (no conciousness, no experience)?
It's the questioning, the wondering, that can lead to a fear of death.
My logical, reasonable self KNOWS beyond question that death is simply the cessation of conciousness. I like sleeping. Ergo, I should be cool with death.
But the illogical randomness of imagination creates within me a co-existant (with the above) terror about death. Maybe not terror, but certainly 'disquietude'. The idea of not being a part of things anymore.... the idea of pain before/during death.... the lonliness of it; these things scare me if I let them.
Which is utterly illogical
. Which only means I'm still human (whew!).
Besides, the fear, the worry of it, only occurs to me when I'm either very vulnerable (badly depressed or something) OR (and this happens every time) when I'm about to throw up. Vomiting, and the nausea wave just before doing so, always triggers thoughts of the most horrible things in my head (violent death, cancer, all kinds of nasty stuff). This is just a hold-over habit from my childhood, when I'd think of icky, horrid things to speed-up the process of puking (for a while, just the thought of shrimp salad would make me nauseus, because I got sick from a bad one at age 10!).
So, I think fear of death is more a mental weakness thing... which makes it the perfect source material for organized religion to control and "guide" the masses.
I'm not into organized religion at all, and although I do tend towards seeing things similarly to you (that my own brain's understanding of the universe is solitary and 'different' than anyone elses), I also wish for / imagine a spiritual 'life' after death. For me, though, the guiding idea is "I Don't Know". Does conciousness just shut off upon death? Is there pure nothingness? Would that be scary (experiencing 'nothingness') or irrelevant (no conciousness, no experience)?
It's the questioning, the wondering, that can lead to a fear of death.
My logical, reasonable self KNOWS beyond question that death is simply the cessation of conciousness. I like sleeping. Ergo, I should be cool with death.
But the illogical randomness of imagination creates within me a co-existant (with the above) terror about death. Maybe not terror, but certainly 'disquietude'. The idea of not being a part of things anymore.... the idea of pain before/during death.... the lonliness of it; these things scare me if I let them.
Which is utterly illogical
. Which only means I'm still human (whew!).Besides, the fear, the worry of it, only occurs to me when I'm either very vulnerable (badly depressed or something) OR (and this happens every time) when I'm about to throw up. Vomiting, and the nausea wave just before doing so, always triggers thoughts of the most horrible things in my head (violent death, cancer, all kinds of nasty stuff). This is just a hold-over habit from my childhood, when I'd think of icky, horrid things to speed-up the process of puking (for a while, just the thought of shrimp salad would make me nauseus, because I got sick from a bad one at age 10!).
So, I think fear of death is more a mental weakness thing... which makes it the perfect source material for organized religion to control and "guide" the masses.
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gareth19 (imported)
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Re: Why the need to live a long life?
We k
I suspect that most people do live each day as it comes with little thought about the end, until the end becomes close due to illness or old age. That being said, even animals don't die complacently, hence our discomfort at carnivorous habits though chewing a carrot ends its life-span as surely as chopping a chicken's head off ends its life. The carrot just doesn't make such a fuss about it.
And probably most people's lives are not of such importance that having an extra five years would make a difference to the world as a whole, but surely you know some of those superfluous people that you would very much like to have lived a few years longer.
That is always the problem with death from an illness like cancer or emphysema; part of you wants the person to remain alive, but without the agony of the illness which means that there is mixed with grief an element of relief and thankfulness that the suffering is over.
That is also the problem with our current health care system (or lack of a system) the society as a whole has no agreed upon standards for care. Yes, we can keep people alive artificially for unreasonable amounts of time and unaffordable amounts of money, but to what good? Currently, we leave the ultimate decision to some insurance company executive whose considers the fiscal impact. Wouldn't it be better if someone with medical training made that decision?
But most people would prefer not to think about it, so they go into hysterics about "death panels" and so endorse the untrained death panels they already have and cry to allow them to continue to enjoy the "health care" that they currently don't have.
In any event, Elizabeth, live long and prosper.
Elizabeth (imported) wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:00 am now spend 25% of our GDP, not to prevent death, but only to delay it. That seems disproportionally huge to me considering what we get. Let me go back, I am getting ahead of myself. I am an existentialist ideally, and libertarian realistically. Meaning simply that I don't live in a society where existentialists could exist in their purest sense. But having said that, I don't have any religious beliefs at all and I do not believe I am here for some purpose.
I consider myself to be a sentient piece of matter. The emergent property of self realization is simply a product of intelligence. Any intelligent being intelligent enough to figure out that they are an intelligent being, in the universe and that they have a finite existence, will become sentient.
So as far as I am concerned what ever happens is only going to happen in my universe, that happens in my head. If other people have an existence outside of the universe in my head, I am not aware of it. So about 100 years after I die, everyone who ever knew me personally will be dead. My existence will have no significance in any way that will matter because in the end, all humans are going to die at some point. And when everyone is dead, nobody's existence will mean anything to anyone.
Why not just enjoy what life one has and not worry so much about how much time we have left and live everyday as if it were your last, because it just might be. There are a lot of people who died today that thought it was going to be an ordinary day.
Elizabeth
I suspect that most people do live each day as it comes with little thought about the end, until the end becomes close due to illness or old age. That being said, even animals don't die complacently, hence our discomfort at carnivorous habits though chewing a carrot ends its life-span as surely as chopping a chicken's head off ends its life. The carrot just doesn't make such a fuss about it.
And probably most people's lives are not of such importance that having an extra five years would make a difference to the world as a whole, but surely you know some of those superfluous people that you would very much like to have lived a few years longer.
That is always the problem with death from an illness like cancer or emphysema; part of you wants the person to remain alive, but without the agony of the illness which means that there is mixed with grief an element of relief and thankfulness that the suffering is over.
That is also the problem with our current health care system (or lack of a system) the society as a whole has no agreed upon standards for care. Yes, we can keep people alive artificially for unreasonable amounts of time and unaffordable amounts of money, but to what good? Currently, we leave the ultimate decision to some insurance company executive whose considers the fiscal impact. Wouldn't it be better if someone with medical training made that decision?
But most people would prefer not to think about it, so they go into hysterics about "death panels" and so endorse the untrained death panels they already have and cry to allow them to continue to enjoy the "health care" that they currently don't have.
In any event, Elizabeth, live long and prosper.
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Twinsenboy (imported)
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Re: Why the need to live a long life?
You sure it's a need, not just a want? I guess most human beings don't want to be a mayfly. Good for us! Something about Karma, I guess. You never know.
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raymar2020 (imported)
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Re: Why the need to live a long life?
This thread started out aobut one thing, and morphed into another. I'll address both issues.
1. We do spend way too much money trying to save the sick and dying who will never enjoy what I would consider to be an acceptable quality of life. Keeping brain dead people alive with machines, at HORRENDOUS costs is absurd!The heroic measures that are undertaken with severely disabled children , only to leave families financially ruined, and saddled with care of an aging child for life is rather foolish. That said, far be it for me to attempt to walk in the shoes of another when it comes to things like that.
2. As for the reality of life. I was raised catholic, and while I am often in disaggreement with the positions of the church, and with many of its doctrines, I still feel that there is no way that such a thing as the world that we know just happened. I am not a believer in the "Big Bang Theory". I would like to think that once this life is over that there is something else, but I am pragmatic enough to question that.
3. Those that live life as though today may be the last , never look very far forward , and doom themselves to a sketchy exixtance. I am realistic, and barring some illness, that I don't yet know about , will likely have another 20-25 years here. I use each day to try to provide for those years, and be prepared for them. Sure, tomorrow could be the last day, and indeed several times in my life so far, I have faced a near death experience, but that does not stop me from looking to the future.
I have oft said that I hope to last long enough that the much younger generations of my family will say " is that old bastard still alive?" I only want that though if my quality of life can be maintained. I will be at great peace when the time comes to lay down , and fade away. I just hope that through my actions, and deeds, that as time passes that my memory will survive in future generations.
Raymar
1. We do spend way too much money trying to save the sick and dying who will never enjoy what I would consider to be an acceptable quality of life. Keeping brain dead people alive with machines, at HORRENDOUS costs is absurd!The heroic measures that are undertaken with severely disabled children , only to leave families financially ruined, and saddled with care of an aging child for life is rather foolish. That said, far be it for me to attempt to walk in the shoes of another when it comes to things like that.
2. As for the reality of life. I was raised catholic, and while I am often in disaggreement with the positions of the church, and with many of its doctrines, I still feel that there is no way that such a thing as the world that we know just happened. I am not a believer in the "Big Bang Theory". I would like to think that once this life is over that there is something else, but I am pragmatic enough to question that.
3. Those that live life as though today may be the last , never look very far forward , and doom themselves to a sketchy exixtance. I am realistic, and barring some illness, that I don't yet know about , will likely have another 20-25 years here. I use each day to try to provide for those years, and be prepared for them. Sure, tomorrow could be the last day, and indeed several times in my life so far, I have faced a near death experience, but that does not stop me from looking to the future.
I have oft said that I hope to last long enough that the much younger generations of my family will say " is that old bastard still alive?" I only want that though if my quality of life can be maintained. I will be at great peace when the time comes to lay down , and fade away. I just hope that through my actions, and deeds, that as time passes that my memory will survive in future generations.
Raymar
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Elizabeth (imported)
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Re: Why the need to live a long life?
Well, I do consider myself lucky to be sentient matter. Most of the matter that we know about is not alive and as far as we know, so far we are the only sentient beings, although some anthropologists may dispute this. I feel so lucky in fact, that it really does not make dying a huge bummer. I mean most matter never gets to be sentient. On top of being sentient, I live in wealthiest country in the world, in the wealthiest state, in a metropolitan area where it's hard to find a building over 40 years old, with many being 20 or less years old. Income, gas, and housing prices are consistently higher in this area, as are many metropolitan areas. On top of that, I beat out over 500,000,000 other sperm, to be the first to fertilize the egg and become me.
But I have to admit, I don't remember being upset during the 13.7 billion years (at least) where I did not exist. So I am not all that worried about not existing again. Apparently, time really flies when you don't exist. There are so many things that could happen that could cause the extinction of not only humans, but all life on earth, that it would take much to long to list them here. But even if somehow we could avoid all of those things, the sun is eventually going to burn out. There is a huge long shot that we might somehow be able to sent out colonists to other planets that could sustain life, but it would be a multi-generational endeavor and would require much better technology than we currently have.
Well, one thing for sure, we can't keep upping the percentage of GDP that we spend to live longer. It's breaking our economic system. Many people lose everything they have worked for their whole life, just paying to die. It now costs over $1 million to die of cancer, on average. That is absurd. Most of these therapies extend life in terms of months, but at the most, a few years. What do you suppose Steve Jobs paid to die? He had a liver transplant when they knew it would only give him time, not a cure. A liver that could have been given to someone that could have had a full life, but unfortunately did not have insurance that would pay the obscene amount of money a team of about 20 people charge for a transplant.
It really doesn't matter to me, because I am never going to try to extend my life with therapies that are only intended to extend my life and make the pharmaceutical and hospital business a lot of cash. I am not going to spend my last days being sentient, throwing up and feeling like I am dying. Living longer at any cost and quality of life is no bargain as far as I am concerned.
Elizabeth
But I have to admit, I don't remember being upset during the 13.7 billion years (at least) where I did not exist. So I am not all that worried about not existing again. Apparently, time really flies when you don't exist. There are so many things that could happen that could cause the extinction of not only humans, but all life on earth, that it would take much to long to list them here. But even if somehow we could avoid all of those things, the sun is eventually going to burn out. There is a huge long shot that we might somehow be able to sent out colonists to other planets that could sustain life, but it would be a multi-generational endeavor and would require much better technology than we currently have.
Well, one thing for sure, we can't keep upping the percentage of GDP that we spend to live longer. It's breaking our economic system. Many people lose everything they have worked for their whole life, just paying to die. It now costs over $1 million to die of cancer, on average. That is absurd. Most of these therapies extend life in terms of months, but at the most, a few years. What do you suppose Steve Jobs paid to die? He had a liver transplant when they knew it would only give him time, not a cure. A liver that could have been given to someone that could have had a full life, but unfortunately did not have insurance that would pay the obscene amount of money a team of about 20 people charge for a transplant.
It really doesn't matter to me, because I am never going to try to extend my life with therapies that are only intended to extend my life and make the pharmaceutical and hospital business a lot of cash. I am not going to spend my last days being sentient, throwing up and feeling like I am dying. Living longer at any cost and quality of life is no bargain as far as I am concerned.
Elizabeth
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tugon (imported)
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Re: Why the need to live a long life?
Sadly because we have technology that can keep the body alive we expect it to be used. My siblings and I would not let our mother be put on machines to artificially extend her life. We knew and understood her wishes. She had a quality of life and we did not try for quantity of life. That was a tough decision but we had all discussed it before hand.
We have the technology and we have doctors that are trained to save and extend life. Very few professionals in healthcare like to talk about death. A life and death game if you can keep them alive you win if they die you fail. We do need doctors to be trained to talk with their patients about end of life care. No one gets out of this life alive but no one wants to talk about it. What was a great idea in Universal Healthcare became death panels by the other side.
I do believe we will continue in the spirit form after our bodies die. My spirit has been outside my body so I am not afraid of death. I am more afraid of long term suffering. I have witnessed people so afraid of death that they would bankrupt their family for one more miserable suffering day in the body. My job is primarily to help folks in their last stages of life. I am amazed at how much a surprise death is to family of someone with a terminal diagnosis. First we must educate about death, quality of life and comfort measures because we will all be there one day. Knocking on Heaven's Door.
We have the technology and we have doctors that are trained to save and extend life. Very few professionals in healthcare like to talk about death. A life and death game if you can keep them alive you win if they die you fail. We do need doctors to be trained to talk with their patients about end of life care. No one gets out of this life alive but no one wants to talk about it. What was a great idea in Universal Healthcare became death panels by the other side.
I do believe we will continue in the spirit form after our bodies die. My spirit has been outside my body so I am not afraid of death. I am more afraid of long term suffering. I have witnessed people so afraid of death that they would bankrupt their family for one more miserable suffering day in the body. My job is primarily to help folks in their last stages of life. I am amazed at how much a surprise death is to family of someone with a terminal diagnosis. First we must educate about death, quality of life and comfort measures because we will all be there one day. Knocking on Heaven's Door.
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punkypink (imported)
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Re: Why the need to live a long life?
To be honest, given the rampant discrimination against the superficial that I've faced from everywhere, even ignorant people on the EA, I'd like to live as long as I can so I can get to a stage in human history where we've finally woken up our f*cking ideas and realise the outside and physical does not matter at all, and can finally experience my life as it should be, free from the bigotry and ignorance and discrimination of others. So yes, I'd like to live as long as I can, just so I get to experience a few years of my life that isn't shit thanks to the ignorance of others.
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Riverwind (imported)
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Re: Why the need to live a long life?
Pink, I have found in life you get out of it what you put into it. When you go around with a chip on your shoulder because you have a different life stile, people pick up on the chip first. I know for a fact that the life you lead is much better then that of what my brother had, being gay in the 40' and 50' on was not fun, but I never herd him be down on life, he was in the trenches fighting for gay rights 50 years ago, I fight for them today in his memory. I not sure I could do that if he did not see the good in life and others, something to think about.
I wish you the very best,
River
I wish you the very best,
River
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Elizabeth (imported)
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Re: Why the need to live a long life?
punkypink (imported) wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:45 am To be honest, given the rampant discrimination against the superficial that I've faced from everywhere, even ignorant people on the EA, I'd like to live as long as I can so I can get to a stage in human history where we've finally woken up our f*cking ideas and realise the outside and physical does not matter at all, and can finally experience my life as it should be, free from the bigotry and ignorance and discrimination of others. So yes, I'd like to live as long as I can, just so I get to experience a few years of my life that isn't shit thanks to the ignorance of others.
My happiness does not depend on the actions of others. Others can not make one happy or unhappy, only oneself can do that.
Elizabeth