4 old men in court today

[Riverwind (imported)]

I caught the tail end of this report on PBS tonight, it was about 4 old men who were in court where the judge was asking if they could hear him and understood what he was talking about.

Evidently these 4 old men were getting ready to be terrorist.

Did anybody else see this story or read about it, I would like to know more. anybody ? DAVE.

River

[Dave (imported)]

>>Take your pick.

>>

Four elderly men will appear in court in Georgia Wednesday after they allegedly told undercover informants of their plans to attack federal buildings in the Atlanta area with explosives and a biological toxin, reports ABC News. http://abcnews.go.com/US/georgia-men-ch ... d=14866056

Federal authorities said the men allegedly held clandestine militia meetings beginning in March to discuss using toxic materials and assassinations to undermine the government, according to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/georgia ... 14918.html

Dan Roberts, 67, Frederick Thomas, 73, Ray Adams, 65, and Samuel Crump, 68, were all charged with plotting the attacks after they worked to buy semiautomatic rifles, silencers, machine guns, a bomb and ricin, a toxic chemical, from undercover informants, reports CNN. They were arrested Tuesday afternoon in north Georgia. http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/02/justice/g ... ?hpt=ju_c2

According to the San Francisco Chronicle, http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/02/justice/g ... ?hpt=ju_c2 the men were reportedly basing their plan of action off the novel "Absolved" by Mike Vanderboegh, a former Alabama militia leader.

At least two of the men are former federal employees, reports Time ( http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... z1ca7zJXvM ). According to the magazine, Thomas reportedly said the following about the attacks:

[Sweetpickle (imported)]

I suppose terrorism is in the eye of the beholder like a lot of other things.

Our government has become so dysfunctional that a lot of people think we

would be better off without this or that person. Often the ones who seem ready

to do anything to get their own political way.

I think these guys just wanted to "simplify" our political process.

[Dave (imported)]

It really is and was a terrorist plot by a bunch of old militia members.

Like nearly all of these homegrown type plots, they fail because they are incompetent.

That's not a good thing to depend on -- the incompetence of criminals or terrorists

[A-1 (imported)]

See?

Just IMAGINE what would happen if you took Social Security away... no place would be safe...

[gareth19 (imported)]

It really is and was a terrorist plot by a bunch of old militia members.

Like nearly all of these homegrown type plots, they fail because they are incompetent.

That's not a good thing to depend on -- the incompetence of criminals or terrorists

Even a blind pig can find an acorn once.

[punkypink (imported)]

could just be 4 old blokes wanting to live out a fantasy. =P

[Cainanite (imported)]

>>

Dan Roberts, 67, Frederick Thomas, 73, Ray Adams, 65, and Samuel Crump, 68, were all charged with plotting the attacks after they worked to buy semiautomatic rifles, silencers, machine guns, a bomb and ricin, a toxic chemical, from undercover informants, reports CNN. They were arrested Tuesday afternoon in north Georgia.

I question if perhaps it was just all talk until someone came into their group and started to egg them on, even going so far as to offer them access to the guns and chemicals they'd need to do the job.

I used to work in a department store with a cafeteria. The old Saskatchewan Farmers would congregate there for coffee and talk. More than once I overheard the old guys complaining about the government, and that they should all take their guns and head to the capitol. Some of their plots and plans were pretty ingenious and convincing. Nothing ever came of it though. It was just a mental exercise that allowed the old guys to feel like they still had some control over the country and their fates.

What would have happened if I had sat down and started to encourage them? What if I started to offer them things that were beyond their imagination, like access to Ricin, and machine guns? What if I endeared myself to them, and really made what they were planning sound very important to me? Helping them take the leap from imagination to reality, with the added benefit of attention and approval from the younger generation.

Add to that thought experiment that those old farmers were retired military men, and struggling with feelings that they were no longer useful, or capable, when once they were virile and noble soldiers. How much prodding on my part would it take to convince them to undertake one last mission, and show the world they are still capable of making a difference?

I guess I'm asking, would they have ever committed the crimes they are accused of if the informants hadn't gotten involved? If the informants hadn't offered to get them the tools they'd need to carry out their plot, how far would it really have gone?

I don't know anything about the case. I should check it out. I'm just offering my initial reaction to this thread.

My initial reaction is that this is a case built out of the fantasy of a few old men, longing to relive glory days, and make a difference. If confidential informants hadn't been involved, my guess is it wouldn't have gone very far at all.

I'll get to reading now. I know I shouldn't be commenting without knowing all the facts... I just wanted to share.

[Cainanite (imported)]

Okay, I'm back from doing a little reading about the subject.

Some things that stuck out to me.

They met at a Waffle House, and spoke openly. Doesn't sound like they were worried anyone would take them seriously. Maybe they didn't take themselves seriously.

They called themselves "The Covert Group". This sounds like play-acting more than anything else. Ten year olds come up with better names for their games. Why not "Super Commando Squad"?

None of the four men could afford attorneys, and had to ask for court appointed representation. They were required to offer financial statements that proved they couldn't afford representation. The court agreed. This doesn't sound like a very well funded group. How did they expect to afford to go to war with the USA?

They had to pool their money to buy parts for a gun to convert it to fully automatic, a couple of silencers and bombs. They were buying them from agents that had infiltrated their group. Sounds like the agents were offering something the group could only just afford. Offering them a carrot, so to speak.

The most damning evidence is that the group had a vat of castor beans, and a recipe for Ricin. You can buy castor beans most anywhere, and fairly cheaply. You can find a recipe on the internet. I'm guessing that is about as far as that got. Beans and a piece of paper do not a weapon of mass destruction make.

I'm sorry, but this just sounds more and more like a bunch of old guys wanting to feel like they were making a difference. It sounds like a game of make believe, to help them get through the day.

Even the federal prosecutors had to admit the public had never been in imminent danger from this group. I'm sure more facts will come to light, but right now I feel very sorry for these old fellows. Their game that got them through the day is going to destroy what is left of their lives. It is just so damn sad, I could cry.

[Riverwind (imported)]

You know I am inclined to agree with you, the type of person that does this tends to be in their 20's and 30's not 60's and 70's. I think maybe the best thing that could happen is the judge bawl them out and send them home. Watch them from a distance but nothing more. Terrorism is a young persons game.

Dave thanks for all the links,

River