The Honesty Of Animals & Comparisons With Humans

[loveableleopardy (imported)]

Hopefully this can become an interesting thread.

In what ways are we exactly the same? In what ways do we differ?

And why is it so?

For me, I think that there is little difference between us all. Only our ego seems to alter our behaviour in certain circumstances.

I have only recently been experiencing the pleasures of owning (though I'm not sure that I agree with that term) a pet dog. It's a Jack Russell. It has many characteristics (well, she is quite a character!), but what they all relate to is brutal honesty. And from my own life experiences those who tend to be extremely blunt also happen to be extremely funny. The truth offends, but it also makes us laugh.

Bella (as in the friend of a vampire) is incredibly needy. Well basically we all are, but what I mean is that she is not afraid to show it. So she craves social interaction ALL the time. When she doesn't have this we certainly hear about it!

What she also loves is movement. Someone who is going somewhere is of particular interest (she is highly inquisitive). So what often happens is she will be lazing about on someones lap (she is a superstar at making herself comfortable) and then when someone moves off their chair, or in particular comes in from another room or from outside, she will leave you and go with the mover. After being bored of that she will return to you, just with the expectation that she can have you back again without consequence.

Just for the record, I will usually accept her back with open arms!

In our family we like to say that she just constantly looks around for the best option.

Which is what humans do really, accept that we put some restrictions on our openess (or honesty) in doing this. For we can't just go to whoever we want whenever we want, for we might lose what we have, and we don't want to be lonely. The human ego also sees us craving ownership (there's that word again) of people, or more generally of A person. So we don't allow people just to shop around for the best option and then accept them back when/if they come back to us, after having failed in being accepted by someone better.

A good friend of mine used to talk a bit about the horribleness of humans (in fact this became a bit of a running joke between us), but also the apparent goodness in comparison, of animals. I've long been skeptical of that though, but when I bought up varying arguments in standing up for humanity, she made the point that animals don't have wild sex orgies like we do. I guess that's mostly true. And they also don't have sex for pleasure...apparently.

But I don't see that they are morally superior. There was a story the other day about a love triangle involving three lions. There was a third wheel involved, in the form of a brother of the male lover. Despite his family connection, human observers said that he constantly tried to cut his brothers lunch. Sure, this was in an enclosure, so he didn't have the choice of other lionesses, but would have his behaviour been any different out in the wild? If not, then that's hardly an endorsement for the goodness in animals.

When we all go to bed at night, Bella doesn't think to herself, "they want some sleep, so I will keep quiet and let them have a deep one." Instead she often makes a big racquet, screaming out for attention. Hugely selfish behaviour. I didn't scream at women who I wanted to be with years ago when I was always lonely at night.

Though that may have had something to do with the fact that they didn't give me their number to scream at in the first place

But basically animals are not saints. When most people talk of the goodness in animals, they are talking of the goodness that they are to them. This is highly understandable. A pet is a very safe love to have - there are not many negatives that I can tell from having a pet, at least a dog. A human is a lot less safe to love, but that don't make us the evil species of the animal kingdom - even despite the problems we have caused to the planet and to the animals on it. We caused those problems because we were able to, thanks to our superior intelligence. If giraffes were just as intelligent they would most likely do the same.

[serapisdeath (imported)]

Good thread idea, very interesting. There are a lot of differences and similarities, no doubt about it. The primary thing that sets us apart is one aspect of our cognition; we are unique among social species, even those with a type of animal culture, because we possess something called cumulative culture. That basically means that although our close relatives in the ape family can use tools, communicate a bit, hunt, etc., we are the only ones so far who have developed a mechanism for effectively transmitting improvements on these ideas down the line generationally. All those things that other animals do, even things like the tool use which seems very close to human, are an innate part of their biology. Their cultural tendencies are part of their genetic ability.

If a person was raised without social contact, totally feral, they'd still have those same innate abilities but without the cultural improvements. For instance, give that person a large rock and it won't take long before they figure out how to use it as a primitive hammer because that's part of our genetic capability too. They would not, however, have any of the traits normally associated with people and probably wouldn't hesitate to act on their raw animal instincts. Cumulative culture is the process by which past experiences and preferences are passed onto following generations, allowing us to learn vicariously from the mistakes and successes of others. It's largely based on language, as the mechanism which conveys ideas, but there are also a structural differences with the brain and a different type of organization to the cognition. That root cause, our adaptation to become a socially learning species, is what has allowed us to separate from the rest of the pack and become "exceptional outliers."

[Arab Nights (imported)]

I had an Aussie back in the 80s who was just a wonderful companion. My work is outdoors all over the place and we would spend days together outdoors and then sleep together in motels or the apartment. There were sort of small metaphysical experiences, but the strangest was that when she was 10 I was on vacation 3,000 miles away and began getting a strong feeling of unease at night which quickly grew to an intense feeling every night that death is a black hole of despair. I flew back from vacation and on the third day home she up and died. My take on it is that without being physically close and a lot of time together it is impossible to be connected, whether it is with humans or animals. If you want an animal to be an animal, leave them outside in a pen or a tether. If you want a human to be an animal, leave them in a pen or on a tether. If you want both to be different, spend time together.

[moi621 (imported)]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5jBK6aR7CQ

The guiltiest dog.

So confronted a cat would smile, lick itself and make kitty eyes at you. The cat knows but, cares not. 21st Century ethics.

Moi

[Arab Nights (imported)]

Precisely. That is why I like dogs. The actually do have a memory of what they have done and know when they have done bad.

The other things that is funny as hell is when they do something that embarrasses themselves. It is exactly the dog face equivalent of the human face when somebody does something stupid like sit on a log in a campground and slide off.

[Riverwind (imported)]

How true, when Rupert does something bad, I scold him and he just looks at me as if to say WELL what do you expect, I am a cat. The dog on the other hand will roll over on her back and beg for forgiveness and then jump for joy when you give it.

On Cats, when they do something totally stupid, if you laugh at them they will get embarrassed and pissed, usually by not looking at you with the tail flipping. When this happens its best to console the cat and give him a treat as having your cat pissed at you is not a good thing, they get even.

Rupert gets lots of treats its just easier that way.

River

[loveableleopardy (imported)]

There is some fact, that largely because of the internet, that the human world is doubling it's knowledge every 10 years or 50 or something - I don't remember the number, but because of everyone being able to combine their ideas technology and stuff is going ahead at a million miles an hour. This would differ greatly to a group of monkeys who only forever have access to the ideas of their friends and enemies in the surrounding area.

"W

ithout being physically close and a lot of time together it is impossible to be connected.

" I do not agree with this - in fact I would go with an opposite view, though I wouldn't say that people who are physically close can't be conn

ected - but I haven't lived a very normal existence!

"That is why I

like dogs. The actually do have a memo

ry of what they have done and know when they have done bad."

This.

"The dog on the other hand will roll over on her back and beg for forgiveness and then jump for joy when you give it."

And this!

Bella goes into submission - rolling on her back - when she has done wrong. She also likes to go onto her back to have her tummy rubbed! We have some funny stories, such as her sneaking into my bed and snuggling under the covers in the morning when I am getting ready for work, and scampering out the door and up the street when she knows that people are about to leave her (so as to try to stop this from happening). One day my dad had to come back inside to open the garage and she snuck out. When he finally caught up with her a couple of hundred metres away she went into the submission position! Go Bella

[janekane (imported)]

My wife and I live in the home of two cats, who allow us to live in their home because we put fresh food and water in their fresh food and water receptacles and remove used food and water from their used food and water receptacles. In exchange for our bringing fresh food and water and removing used food and water, our two cats sleep lightly at night, so that, if anything happens that wisely would concern us which we might sleep through to our disadvantage, the cats, to preserve their fresh food and water supply and to preserve their used food and water removal, will most likely alert us to dangers we might otherwise miss.

It also comes to my attention that dogs readily do things plausibly deemed "bad," but our cats never do any such thing. Dogs, it seems to me, are so stupid as to need leadership and so form packs led by a dog no more capable than the dogs the pack leader leads. Sort of like humans, really, really stupid?

Cats, at least the ones who have let us stay in their home, have vastly more useful sense. They do what they do, and what they do is always what they do, and there is none of the silliness of supposedly doing bad things.

To the extent that humans are better able to learn the ways of deception and dishonesty, animals which are unable to do that surely are profoundly more honest than humans (as animals which can learn the ways of dishonesty and deception) are?

Our cats do what they are able to do and are satisfied with what they are able to do. What greater honesty is possible?

[Cainanite (imported)]

I have two cats myself. A Russian Blue, and a Havana Brown. The female is the Havana Brown. She definitely shows her emotions, guilt being among them.

When I brought home groceries the other week, among the groceries was a fresh bag of cat food. While I was bringing in other bags from the car, she got into the grocery bag and tore open the side of her cat-food bag, despite her having a full bowl nearby. She just wanted something a little more fresh.

When I caught her, without my saying a word, she tucked her tail between her legs, and went and hid under the couch. I wish I had a video.

Her brother on the other hand, is more of a traditional cat sociopath. I've never seen him display the slightest sign of guilt over anything he's done... Scratch that. He did. Once, when Persephone (the female) was hiding behind my DVD collection, knocking them over, and pulling out the cables to my TV, I was trying to get her out. I thought a loud noise would drive her out, so I took off my shoe, and banged it on the wooden walls of my TV stand. Ulysses (my Russian Blue) thought I was beating his sister, and attacked my vulnerable foot. He drew blood. As I was on the floor cradling my foot, Ulysses was puffed up and ready for battle. When Persephone casually sauntered out to see what all the fuss was about, Ulee saw her. As soon as it registered for him that his sister was fine, and he had attacked me for no reason, his puffed fur went flat, and he ran away and hid.

In neither case did I yell at the cat. ( I may have yelled in pain at having my foot attacked.) It was the cat's own sense of being caught at doing something wrong. In neither case could I punish them.

Like anyone, it depends on the personality. The only time I get complete deception from my cats is when I find an errant poop outside the litter box. Suddenly, no-one is at fault, and it must have been a ghost cat that dropped a steaming load on my work shoes. No-one steps forward to take the blame for that one, I can tell you.

[Riverwind (imported)]

My pets know, the first of the month Gem and I go shopping, when Gem drops me off I start bringing in bags, both Rupert and Nelly and even Angelo know I have something in one of those bags for them, the doors are wide open but nobody wants to leave because they know there is a treat for them somewhere in that bunch of bags. If I am not quick enough with getting them out, I will hear about it, and its true, it does not matter if you just gave them a treat from that open bag, they want one from the new bag.

Its a special time for them and me.

River