Reining in the Controversy.

[janekane (imported)]

I have worked away in repeated efforts to write something useful regarding the archive stories which might be deemed to pose the greatest hazard to the Eunuch Archive community. My efforts have invariably stumbled and dissipated into imaginary vapors of nothingness.

Some years ago,

David Bohm, Donald Factor, and Peter Garrett

wrote a short scientific paper, readily found on the Internet, "Dialogue - A proposal." The first paragraph of their paper ends wit

h, "In our view this condition points to a deep and pervasive defect in the process of human thought." Wh

at condition? You may read for yourself at:

http://www.david-bohm.net/dialogue/

There is a Ph.D. dissertation which may be found on the Internet, and which the guidelines I understand apply to posting here preclude my directly citing, in which that "deep and pervasive defect" may have been named, "The Fundamental Error of Social Reality."

As I understand said Ph.D. dissertation (which I happen to have read), the "deep and pervasive defect," aka, "the fundamental error or social reality," is the notion that something which happened, having happened, could have happened other than as it happened. At the core of this "defect" or "error" is a confusion between a-priori (before the fact) and a-posteriori (after the fact) probabilities.

I find that this "defect" or "error" has also been named "time-corrupted learning" by neurologist Robert C. Scaer (two of his books are, "The Trauma Spectrum" and "The Body Bears the Burden, Second Edition"); I find that Scaer has written to the effect that time corrupted learning is trauma in the sense of physical and functional brain damage.

It is my nearly lifelong observation that traditional socialization processes of the stages of infancy, childhood, adolescence, and adulthood are stages of increasing brain damage in the sense described by Scaer. The brain damage, or trauma, as I am able to fathom it, is profoundly addictive in the sense of addiction as described by Harvard psychiatrist Lance Dodes, particularly in his book, "The Heart of Addiction."

I happen to be one of those doctorate-holding scientist-types (there are quite a few of us, including a fair number here on the Eunuch Archive).

I happen to be one of those doctorate-holding scientist-types whose core research is directed toward unfathoming human society where such unfathoming is absolutely forbidden by human society. (Methinks there ain't so many of us scientists who do research which is intrinsically forbidden by human society [because it might be usefully truthful?], perhaps because people who do the sort of work I do tend to not survive infancy...

There is a story book that is of olden times, mostly written around 2000 years ago and earlier. I regard a story book as a story book and not as anything else.

In that story book (one which has often been translated and updated in terms of language and language constructs?) is, if I recall accurately, a short story to the effect that, unless one lives in the manner of a little child, there is something important which will be impossible to understand.

Previously mentioned is my being autistic, something which is, for me, exactly the way I find I need to be to properly live my life. Similarly, I find my having been castrated when I was is exactly the way I needed to be when it happened, such that I could then have a decent chance to be alive to day and able to write these words.

To such extent as I am as a little child (something I cannot possibly judge), it occurs to me that I have a way to live which I

find is characteristic of all sufficiently little children.

My life is child-like simple at its core. To me, whatever happens, as it happens, is necessary and sufficient. Thus, in stark contrast with "chidren," "adolescents," and adults, I have no responsibilities of any sort whatsoever. Instead of responsibilities, I have response abilities, and the response abilities (my ability, moment by moment, to respond to the events and happenings of my life) I have are necessary and sufficient to the needs and opportunities of my life. Thus, I actually live in a world in which nothing can ever actually be wrong, yet where it is right to learn what is wrong (hurtful?) by doing what is wrong in as many ways as turns out to be necessary and sufficient to learn how to actually be able to avoid what is wrong.

To me, the infant-child transition is the transition from not being deceptive to being deceptive in accord with one's cultural socialization. Deception is a curious phenomenon. It appears to me that, if a person is deceived, the person cannot possibly be aware of being deceived, for the simple reason that, if a deceived person is aware of being deceived, the person is not deceived.

The most socially-troubling

of the Eunuch Archive Fiction Stories, it

seems to me, are the ones which most effectively draw to conscious attention the intrinsic and inextricable deception inherent in the traditional socialization stages of childhood, adolescence, and adulthood.

If those of us who "belong" here as Eunuch Archive members (it is not for me to decide if I belong; I am not nearly far enough along on the socialization stages path to be able to make such a decision) are valid people for whom some of the "rules of society" are unconscionably abusive, then capitulating to socialization norms which invalidate our humanity would be not only self-abusive but negligent of the real needs of other people.

How does a problem which is impossible to solve get solved?

Might a paradigm shift be of some use?

What about the possibility of "a completely new paradigm," or some approximation thereof, for the structure and function of human society?

Change happens.

Else there would be nothing?

What are the necessary and sufficient properties of nothingness?

[janekane (imported)]

Perhaps I may usefully describe one concern I have regarding the Fiction Archive. This concern is partly associated with my sense that the stories, all of them, are of significant "redeeming social value," when the stories are accurately understood.

In my own life, intense recognition that "society's" supposed definition of me as a boy excluded my actual existence began before I started talking. There is a form of travesty, in my personal view, in prohibiting, or deeming offensive, stories which bring to conscious awareness some of the deepest, most pervasive, and socially significant issues relating to the abuse of children and the lifelong effects of child abuse on people who live lengthy lives.

Consider the following quoted excerpt from the "warning" presently on what was the access to the Fiction Archive stories when the stories were accessible that way:

The point of utmost importance here is that in a story, no real child is in any way involved and therefore harmed. Understanding this concept is of paramount importance, so let us reiterate: No real children involved means exactly that - no children were harmed, exposed, abused, or exploited in the creation or distribution of the stories on this site. No adults for that matter, either. No animals. No living beings.

The predicament for me is related to this sentence in that quotation,

No real children involved means exactly that - no children were harmed, exposed, abused, or exploited in the creation or distribution of the stories on this site.

Everything I write is, to some extent, the result of my having been a child who was "harmed, exposed, abused, and exploited" during the life experiences which provide to me the ability to write as I do; therefore, everything I write about child abuse is possible only because I was abused, abused to the extent of being psychologically shattered. Anything I write, including this, would properly contain the following warning, or something to its effect:

"Warning: At least one child was harmed and/or exposed and/or abused and/or exploited in the creation and distribution of this story."

How could I ever truthfully tell, write or otherwise share, a story of my having been psychologically shattered by repeated catastrophic abuse except through the abuse actually having happened? How can humanity learn how to prevent similar abuse in the future if the truthful telling of child abuse stories is deemed socially intolerable? Does not forbidding of the telling of actual child abuse stories make preventing future child abuse difficult-to-imposible?

Scientific psychology research informs me that human memory is a reconstructive process, such that no human memory can be without error, even were it possible (as I find to not be possible) for anyone to ever have made without error any observation of any complicated human social phenomenon. To the extent that memory is reconstructive, even the most accurate historical narratives are inescapably partially of fiction.

Perhaps the distinction supposedly made between fiction and non-fiction is itself a fictitious distinction.

Had I been able to access the Fiction Archive stories as when I was chronologically a young child, I would have had access to resolving serious conflicts between my inner, inherently valid, sense of self and the preposterous distortions of self which some other people, in the supposed name of society, attempted to coercively indoctrinate me into accepting.

For me, in retrospect, there seems to have been a remarkable gift in my being catastrophically, psychologically shattered. During such times in my life when the abuse was so severe as to have made possible my retaliating abusively for having been abused, there were far too few connected pieces of my personality structure for me to act out in any overt, or even covert, manner.

Given the intolerably unbearable nature of the abuse heaped upon me, that the abuse was catastrophically shattering may be all that granted me the practicable ability to remain alive.

When the infant-child transition takes the form of an infant-child discontinuity (discontinuity meaning amnesia for a few to many pre-transition life experiences), I have no evidence that people whose infant-child transition is of discontinuity form have not been met with far more shattering abuse than any abuse which happened directly to me.

If, as I observe, terrible, devastating child abuse is nearly ubiquitous, who will dare to effectively tell the truth of the fiction of human imperfection?

[Cainanite (imported)]

I have tried, in my way, to explain the need for the stories, including those tagged "Minor". It is my hope that when the time comes, those that make the decision will choose to include all stories, of all tags, on the restored Fiction Archive.

I believe the stories written in the archive may have tread a fine line between the perverse and the profound, but I do not believe the line they walked was ever harmful to anyone. Quite the opposite, I know those stories helped. If the stories return censored of content, I believe the heart of their purpose will be pierced. I would expect further censoring in the future, until the Fiction Archive remains a skeleton of what it was, helping no-one. I wish to avoid that tragedy.

There are many types of people in this world, and not all of us process our thoughts and emotions in the same way. Not all of us even understand what is in our own heads. Art helps us understand. Art is a release. For me, it was my subconscious that attached to the Fiction Archive. It was something below the surface that drew me to what I needed. It sustained me. The most elegant and though provoking stories I found on the archive were often those with the minor theme. True, some were nothing more than a perverted fantasy, but many were written with insight, and affection for the human condition. It was something, from my view, the other tags sorely lacked.

There are themes and tags on the old Archive that did nothing for me. There were stories that disgusted me, and stories that disturbed me. Though I myself gained no comfort or insight from those stories, I would never presume to suggest they helped no-one. The same way there is no one cure-all drug for all a doctor's patients, there is no one right way to find solace in a story.

My belief is that the Eunuch experience is a function of the mind over the body, but primarily of the mind. Eunuch stories speak to the mind. Stories are a safe place to allow the mind to play with what seem forbidden ideas. Before one acts, one must first imagine. In this I do not suggest re-creating the stories out in the real world. That way lies madness. I mean that before someone can make the leap to the action of seeking help, one must first imagine that what they want is not so strange, or forbidden.

This is why the Forums need the Fiction Archive, and the Fiction Archive should not stand without the Forums. One is the thought. One is the action. There will be those who are ready to act, and will never need the Fiction Archive. For them there will be Forums. There are those who are not ready to act, they will need the Fiction Archive. When they are ready, the Forum will be here, once imagination gives flight to action.

The Fiction Archive is the Forum's wide net that it casts into the ocean of the internet. Without the Fiction Archive, the Forum is just a singe lure on a thin line, cast into the dark. Censoring the Archive of content begins the process of cutting holes in that net. Eventually it will be nothing more than a useless tangle that catches nothing.

I deeply admire and respect the people that run this forum, and moderated the stories. I wish them no ill, and respect the struggle they have had over the Fiction Archive. Whatever they decide, I will not speak ill of their decision. I only hope they decide returning the stories without censoring them is the greatest good for this community.

[A-1 (imported)]

There exists in many, many twelve step programs, or those programs that are so patterned, several cathartic processes that allows people to break the addiction cycle.

Such processes involve committing troubling feelings to paper. Then, the paper is read to the person that is involved in these feelings, if that person is still alive. If dead, the paper is read over their grave or where their remains lie. Then the paper is left there and/or destroyed.

If the feelings involve a problem and not so much a person, the paper is placed in a jar with the label "God Jar". This symbolism when accompanied by a prayer or a spiritual symbol that effectively allows the addicted one to submit control to a Higher Power. Forgiveness of self and others can also be accomplished in this manner.

The cathartic effect of the Eunuch Archive involves sexuality. That sexuality can be lost, uncontrollable or perverted by abuse in a developmental stage. Committing the story to paper for an author effectively removes the feelings that the story generates from the author's psyche. For a reader of a story, reading the story removes the sense of the isolation of victimization.

For these reasons alone the story boards serves a purpose to humanity. For whatever reason the massive numbers of hits on the story boards proves that there is more going on than just closeted perversion by a reader.

It would behoove us to allow Jesus to present our dilemma over the legality of the boards to the Kinsey Institute for a learned opinion by professional sexologists. If there is no hurry to restore the boards perhaps a statement from the Kinsey Institute might go a long ways to alleviate legal hassles in the future.

Surely no competent sexologist of sociologist could ignore the phenomena that the E.A. represents, both from the number of reader hits and the number of anonymously contributed stories, some from people who have never attempted to write a story before. It appears that this phenomena transcends all known social boundaries owing to the number of foreign language story contributions.

Destroying the library of castration and sexual destruction stories contained in the Eunuch Archive could be paralleled to the destruction of libraries by pagans or religious prudes in history.

Imagine what we might know about history today if no library were ever destroyed or if no book was ever burned and if the knowledge was accessible to everyone.

[Prudence (imported)]

For me the stories are what drew me to EA in the first place. Without them, I would have never joined the forums.

Most of what Cainanite has said, and the above post by A-1, echo my thoughts. Especially the following:

The cathartic effect of the Eunuch Archive involves sexuality. That sexuality can be lost, uncontrollable or perverted by abuse in a developmental stage. Committing the story to paper for an author effectively removes the feelings that the story generates from the author's psyche. For a reader of a story, reading the story removes the sense of the isolation of victimization.

For these reasons alone the story boards serves a purpose to humanity. For whatever reason the massive numbers of hits on the story boards proves that there is more going on than just closeted perversion by a reader.

Typing up stories really helped me to get over things that were done to me during childhood. The same is true in reading other people's stories. I think this is one of the reasons why there are so many "minor" themed stories. So many people have been sexually abused as children, and for some, writing it down or even "re-enacting" the situation (by reading either your own stories or those of others) is very healing. It has been that way for me. Now that I have gotten through most of it, I find it more difficult to write and my desire to read those type of stories has greatly decreased. In other words my psyche has been "healed".

I sure hope the Fiction Archive will be put back up some day soon. It was an invaluable tool in helping me get over my past,and I think it would be the same for others.

[todbaron (imported)]

The notion that people are reading the archive because they are ill and need a cure is fundamentally insulting to everybody.

Sexuality is a source of joy. Everything about this needs to be sex-positive, including the parts that involve loss or

sacrifice of somebody's sexuality; even that is a lemon out of which lemonade could be made, or even a dragon that

could eventually be slain, at least in a literary context.

"Committing the story to paper" is far more important for the readers than for the author.

"for an author", this commitment allegedly "

effectively removes the feelings that the story generates from the author's psyche

",

but it is far from clear why that would be desirable. If the author is angry about some evil then that does not need

to be removed; the evil needs to be corrected. The notion that what the readers or writers are feeling is somehow

bad or in need of purging is a bad notion; it is one that de-legitimizes all participants.

If the benefit of the stories were for the authors then there would be no need to archive them long-term. The benefit of the stories

is for the readers. That there must also be some benefit for the authors goes without saying, since they are not being paid and

therefore would not be bothering to write the stories at all (if there were no benefit). Every story has far more readers than writers,

and it is the readers who are being oppressed by the absence of the archive.

[janekane (imported)]

I observe that the issues around which the Archive Fiction Stories are mainly based are issues which first arise during childhood; there is no useful or effective way to deal with such issues through stories without using fictitious minor characters.

A central aspect of what I do as a licensed professional is centered around the nature of, and social function of, traumatic child abuse.

It may be that what I do as a licensed professional who studies, as a scientist-engineer, public safety aspects of the structure(s) of human society could be of practical value in making clear the intrinsic, redeeming social value of even the most profoundly troubling (troubling to those who do not understand the stories and/or their critically important social value) of the Archive Fiction Stories.

It is my hope that there will be time, effort, and opportunity at the MoM for me to share in reasonable detail the relevance of my work as a scientist/engineer to the future availability of the Fiction Stories.

In possible contrast with what I understand to be the life and life work of the resident scholar/agent-provocateur, "Jesus," I have lived some of the central issues of "mind/body gender disparity," and, for all I yet know and understand, may have done so about as intensively and extensively as anyone else ever has.

I had developed a clear understanding that I did not fit the societal template for "boy," and would likely never fit the societal template for "man" before my second birthday.

I never went through the infant-child transition

or the infant-child discontinuity, and have an unbroken sequence of memories going back before I was born. I observe the infant-child transition (or discontinuity) to be a traumatic event, one which so filled me with a sense of terror as to drive me to do anything that would not kill me to avoid that transition. Never having transitioned from infant to child in the social stage development manner, I could never transition from child to adolescent or adolescent to adult.

Early in my life, I began a diligent, all-out-effort search for pragmatic ways of converting every "symptom" of my life into a research asset. I do participant-observer research during the ordinary course of my life; my research work and my ordinary life are contiguous and inseparable, and I avoid using deception in my research (deception has often been a common aspect of traditional psychology research).

I happen to live near the eastern shore (Lake Michigan) of Wisconsin; the mothership is near the western shore (the St. Croix River), and I am a Wisconsin Registered Professional Engineer. I understand that Daubert is not the law in Wisconsin, and that, as a Registered Professional Engineer, I am, as a fact of law, an expert witness in areas of my professional competence. My competence includes understanding the redeeming social value of the Archive Fiction Stories in terms of their value in promoting public safety.

Whether my research and professional standing will lead to my being of significant help with the Archive Fiction Story enigma, I expect to explore at the MoM, to such extent as is decent and practicable.

[Slammr (imported)]

The notion that people are reading the archive because they are ill and need a cure is fundamentally insulting to everybody...

it is the readers who are being oppressed by the absence of the archive.

Unless we are reading different posts, or more likely, you are reading things into posts that aren't there, I haven't seen any post that says

people are reading the archive because they are ill.

I've seen some authors remark about the benefits they received from putting their experiences and feelings into words, but that's all.

It's your post I find insulting; and if I had my way, I'd probably ban you for it. I'll leave that up to others, however.

[Cainanite (imported)]

The notion that people are reading the archive because they are ill and need a cure is fundamentally insulting to everybody.

Sexuality is a source of joy. Everything about this needs to be sex-positive, including the parts that involve loss or

sacrifice of somebody's sexuality; even that is a lemon out of which lemonade could be made, or even a dragon that

could eventually be slain, at least in a literary context.

"Committing the story to paper" is far more important for the readers than for the author.

"for an author", this commitment allegedly "

effectively removes the feelings that the

story generates from the author's psyche

",

but it is far from clear why that would be desirable. If the author is angry about some evil then that does not need

to be removed; the evil needs to be corrected. The notion that what the readers or writers are feeling is somehow

bad or in need of purging is a bad notion; it is one that de-legitimizes all participants.

If the benefit of the stories were for the authors then there would be no need to archive them long-term. The benefit of the stories

is for the readers. That there must also be some benefit for the authors goes without saying, since they are not being paid and

therefore would not be bothering to write the stories at all (if there were no benefit). Every story has far more readers than writers,

and it is the readers who

are being oppressed by the absence of the archive.

None of us have ever said that the readers or authors were ill, but I get your meaning. We've been talking about how the stories help us, when we should include that feeling joy, or gaining sexual release can also be beneficial. I made a comment earlier that stated how no-one finds the same help from the eunuch stories in the same way. I compared it to there being no one cure all drug for all a doctor's patients. I didn't mean that to say we were looking for a cure. Though I get how you can interpret it that way. Instead of using the word "help" or "benefit", I might have used the words "found joy in" to describe why the stories were positive.

Joy and celebration of sexuality is a very positive thing. That by itself should be reason enough to return the Fiction Archive. I should be more aware to include that as a valid argument.

Words are tricky things. When I spoke of help, and gaining help from the stories, I should have included that I gained joy, and yes some of that has been sexual joy. We live in a world where what the Fiction Archive contained is seen as perverse, and not worth public exposure. Without those stories I felt alone and dark. When I found those stories I felt joy. I felt acceptance. I felt sexual peace, and cathartic release. Surely you would describe that as helpful.

When I spoke of seeking help on the forums, I should have included the friends I have made there, and that on the forums no-one judged my desire to be sexless. No-one tried to cure me of my non-conforming desires. I should have spoke about the advice I've been given, or the things I learned that helped me better understand myself. Finding help does not mean I'm looking for a cure to my "illness".

I guess I've been writing in metaphor and simile. Going from feeling alone and feeling like a freak, to finding joy in stories that speak to my inner desires, and finding friends who support me and never judge me for those desires, has been like being crippled and sick, and finally finding a cure. (this time that was a simile.) I don't mean that I'm literally sick and needing a cure.

If you are feeling oppressed because the stories are temporarily missing, wont you feel better when they return? Wouldn't that help you?

In truth, we are not oppressed. We are impatient. (Though I did feel sick when the whole site went down.) The stories will return, but not because we demand it. The stories have caused problems for this community, and we need to be careful how we bring them back. That takes time, and careful dialog about all the possibilities, and how to avoid further pitfalls.

If you have a suggestion for how to bring the stories back and best protect this community, please feel free to share it. This is the thread for those ideas. They would be most welcome, and may help get the Fiction Archive returned that much sooner.

[smcallister (imported)]

If you have a suggestion for how to bring the stories back and best protect this community, please feel free to share it. This is the thread for those ideas. They would be most welcome, and may help get the Fiction Archive returned that much sooner.

Just wanted to share a couple more thoughts -

There are many story archives on the web that I frequent. I hate to say it, but this isn't the first time I've seen this sort of controversy. Even on the "Male Muscle Growth Fiction" archive, there was huge debate (http://www.musclegrowth.org/forum/showt ... hp?t=19071) about the inclusion of minors in stories last year. In that case, many good authors left as a result because they (understandably) didn't want their artistic work abridged, there was huge drama, and everyone suffered as a result.

What it seems to come down to for the site operators where I've seen this play out, is the myriad of international laws around child pornography. In some jurisdictions, even text stories with minor content in sexual situations is considered CP, and some governments even block access to websites or shut down webhosting on those grounds. It is for this reason that I'm suggesting that there may be risk to the EA community in including them: That depending on where the EA members are internationally, some members could lose access to the EA if their governments blanketly (and perhaps unfairly) deem this site as a CP source.

For example: In Canada, CP prohibitions cover any written material or visual representation that advocates child pornography offenses against a person under 18. There is an exception for material with artistic merit or an educational, scientific, or medical purpose, but their high court concluded that a "person" under their law could be either real or fictional and that the prohibition of written texts was potentially acceptable. (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_pornography_laws )

In my previous post, I suggested that stories with minor content should be removed. After reading some of the other comments, I regret giving that opinion so blanketly, and realize that its not quite so simple when you consider the therapeutic value of some of these stories. My suggestion would be for the EA leaders to weigh the risk of some members being denied access to the EA by their home countries, and/or the risk in potentially losing your webhosting (and having to recover), versus the loss of some of the clearly therapeutic story content for the EA community that may contain minor themes. If the greater risk to the EA community is with the latter, and you decide that the risks with the former are worth it, perhaps the decision to keep them is indeed the right decision for the EA community.

Hope this helps!