Reining in the Controversy.

[ukmanman (imported)]

Is a lurker that doesnt post often, I have read this discussion with interest. Whilst I dont want to get into the freedom of expression argument and I dont know how to solve the problem of the Archive, I would like to second the option of making it available for download or in a torrent for registered members before something drastic happens to it

Is the archive in a format that could be "zipped up" and then made available in this way?

I do understand the issues, but how do other sites (The Nifty Archive for one) get away with unrestricted access to fiction with minor themes? Would they be willing to host the archive?

[kwanmingmin (imported)]

There have been some good ideas suggested.

- Keep the Fiction Archive hidden

behind password log in. Make th

e stories inaccessible to

the casually surfing busybody.

- Host the stories on a separ

ate domain, to better protect the Admins and this Forum.

I absolutely agree with one of these options.

It is very important to keep the stories online, wherever we put them, because they represent hours, days and months of efforts paid by each author.

[janekane (imported)]

In about a month, some folks will, I understand, show up at the MoM. I intend to be one of those folks.

I happen to be a for-real scientist, and I understand there are a bunch of other for-real scientists associated with the Eunuch Archive. While I do have a doctorate, as do others here, I also find that people who never even finished high school are often better informed about some important concerns than almost anyone who somehow got a piece of fancy, framed portable wallpaper.

Being autistic and somewhere in the socially-intolerable (especially when I was of childhood age range) areas of gender diversity, I have consistently found myself being flung from what has been deemed socially proper. It took me years to figure out how to convert symptoms into socially/scientifically useful research assets, and I may have quite a way yet to go.

It has become rather clear to me that social issues that are sufficiently excluded from socially approved discourse may be the most urgently in need of being accepted as valuable for improving the decency of human society. Fiction is the only way to communicate that which is too important and significant, in terms of bringing forth the deepest aspects of the human comedic tragedy, to be told and to not be told.

The world survived, albeit not as it otherwise would have, the burning of the library at Alexandria.

I have found the book by Judith Viorst, "Necessary Losses: The Loves, Illusions, Dependencies, and Impossible Expectations That All of Us Have to Give Up in Order to Grow" useful reading and a source of useful understanding. Perhaps within that book are hints as to how we, those who care about this community and the fiction archive, may wisely go forth. Yes, I am rather new as a formal member. Yes, I have cared about people who have or may become members here or who are guests, for as long as I can remember.

Some things are far too important to be hurried along.

[Slammr (imported)]

Is a lurker that doesnt post often, I have read this discussion with interest. Whilst I dont want to get into the freedom of expression argument and I dont know how to solve the problem of the Archive, I would like to second the option of making it available for download or in a torrent for registered members before something drastic happens to it

Is the archive in a format that could be "zipped up" and then made available in this way?

I do understand the issues, but how do other sites (The Nifty Archive for one) get away with unrestricted access to fiction with minor themes? Would they be willing to host the archive?

It's not a Freedom of Speech issue. The stories are protected speech in the USA. The Supreme Court has ruled they are. The domain registrar and the web host provider decided, because of the minor content of some of the stories, they wouldn't host EA. A web host can't be forced to host a site. The minor content stories on Nifty and ASSTR are legal under the constitution, and apparently they are able to find someone to host them.

One web host kicked me off their servers because of the content posted on my site (no minor content) but the content is fine with the host I have now.

I don't know whether reading minor themed stories can be therapeutic, but I'll accept that they might be. I do know writing such stories can be therapeutic, knowing that from my own experience and from what I've heard from other authors of such stories. Many castration and sexual issues stem from childhood or puberty and writing about such issues, even if what one is writing is fiction, can be therapeutic. One author said that his reoccurring nightmares about some issues he had only stopped after he wrote such a story.

As to sex in minor themed stories: many or most of the authors experienced some sexual abuse growing up. In the minor themed stories I've written, in my mind, I'm the minor experiencing the abuse or castration. I feel his pain, and it's my job as an author to attempt to get the reader to feel it, too.

[gellyfregy (imported)]

It's not a Freedom of Speech issue. The stories are protected speech in the USA. The Supreme Court has ruled they are. The domain registrar and the web host provider decided, because of the minor content of some of the stories, they wouldn't host EA. A web host can't be forced to host a site. The minor content stories on Nifty and ASSTR are legal under the constitution, and apparently they are able to find someone to host them.

Well said.

Has anyone suggested hosting stories on Freenet? It's a bit different, and sometimes slow, but there wouldn't be any of the "preferences" of the owners or providers of internet service to interfere.

I've experimented with it. I think there might be some options for automating the submission and publishing of stories. If people are willing to plan ahead a bit, submit a request and go get a cup of coffee, they could have an index or possibly several new stories by the time they get back.

Of course, there's the question of whether instructing people to get onto Freenet, or even publishing Freenet URIs, might make the current providers uncomfortable.

I won't be at MoM, so I wouldn't be able to be part of the discussion there. Maybe the result of the discussion is that having both the forum/messageboard and the story archive results in a two-headed monster. Maybe EA needs to concentrate on just the one. But it also sounds like there might be some energy for doing both.

[Wolf-Pup (imported)]

When I was talking about how the forum helps....I was thinking in terms of people that come here talking about castrating themselves. Be warned of the issues regarding the various methods (often used in stories). Like the burdizzo, banding, elastrator. How you can die from these and other methods. Being counseled to try taking Androcur or Depo Provera. The test run to see if it is what one truly wants. What happens to the body with the loss of the testicles and/or testosterone. The ethyl alcohol thread for those so desperate that they can't not do it themselves.

So when I said I hadn't ever heard of the stories helping someone, that was true. It isn't really discussed much in that manner of the forums. Heck, reviews are very rare for stories let alone how they help someone therapeutically. So if they do help, that is great. It would be interesting to see it discusses on the forums.

My only concern regarding the fiction section is for the folks running this place. Despite the 1st Amendment protections, people can be persecuted and flogged publicly for anything that isn't the norm. Whatever system is put into place, as long the TPTB are safe works for me.

Cainanite, I don't believe I said your feeling or concerns aren't valid....if I did or implied that I apologize.

[Cainanite (imported)]

...

Whatever system is put into place, as long the TPTB are safe works for me.

Cainanite, I don't believe I said your feeling or concerns aren't valid....if I did or implied that I apologize.

Don't worry about it Wolf-Pup. I was feeling particularly bruised and touchy when I wrote my last couple posts. Consider it a low-T mood swing on my part. Sorry for that.

We agree that the people running this site need to be protected, and that we need to protect the EA as a whole. We're on the same side.

I see the Fiction Archive as a way for people to more easily enter the community.

For me, I couldn't put my finger on what I really wanted or needed. I hated my body. I hated sex. I knew my problems went back to pre-puberty, and all my emotions and self hate were mixed together in a very unhealthy way. Frankly I don't know what I would have posted on the forums at all. Worst of all, I didn't understand why I was feeling the way I was. I was more than once suicidal because of this.

Reading the stories was an outlet for me. I knew there were others dealing with the same things I was. The themes worked for me and kept me going.

Reading C van D let me know I could be more than my sex. I could transcend, even if I didn't have a choice. Reading Slammr, and curious_guy, and Il Musico, gave me hope. Made me want to be better.

Mostly they just let me know I wasn't alone in the world.

Once I got my Hypogonadism diagnosis, everything came together for me. I'm changing my life for the better. Less than a week after learning about my physical problem, I was on the forums. You gave me some advice that I appreciated. I haven't forgotten that.

I've received help from the EA from both sides. I was kept alive by the stories, and was physically helped by the forums. I don't want to lose either. Please understand how this can be a very emotional issue for me. I'm not just looking for a story to wank off to. I genuinely believe I needed both the stories, and the forums.

I don't want someone else to fail to find help because we reacted without all the facts. It's why I've been so passionate about this subject.

I'm sorry I reacted so badly. I'm the one who's asked the members to come here and post their opinions. I need to have a thicker skin about this.

Thank-you for adding to the dialog.

[Il Musico (imported)]

Hello all,

glad to see the EA back online. I was too stupid to figure out how to find it before it returned to its accustomed address. Asked Google, Google didn't know. Checked my mail, assuming there might be some hint in there, only to find that my mail had gone dead. Revived my mail, and now I'm here, catching up on what has happened.

I will try to put my thoughts on this matter in as short a post as I can. It won't be short, sorry.

Throughout all times there have been people trying to force their particular views on what is good and evil upon other people. And many times in history, certain groups of people have burned books and art, hoping to erase ideas. The Nazis have done that, the Holy Inquisition too, among many others. And the affected people usually have tried to fight back, defending their ideas, openly or undercover, depending on the situation.

What happened here is no different. And we have to defend our points of view, and our right to free spech. We are a minority, sure, but still we have rights.

The Eunuch Archive without the stories is like a bottle without wine. It reminds one of what used to be, but is no more. On the outside it looks almost the same, but it's utterly empty and useless.

The stories are of very widely varying quality. If I had to choose stories, I would delete many that I find brutal, unpleasant, disgusting, badly written, and I would retain many others which I find interesting, appealing, poetic, beautiful, spirit-raising, well written. The problem is that MY standards to qualify stories might be totally different from those of other readers, who have as much right to their taste as I have to mine. So I think it's clear that no story should be deleted based on the opinion of any particular person. And given that the stories are legally OK, none should be deleted, really.

Pornography? What exactly is pornography? To me, it's material showing people engaging in gross, abnormal sexual acts, made for the purpose of sexually exciting other people. I don't like it, it doesn't excite me, but I don't object to others liking it.

And child pornography? Well, it's the same, but involving children. The bad part about child pornography is not that it depicts children, but that real, true, children are used, misused and abused, to make it. For that reason, I strictly and absolutely reject child pornography.

And what about stories involving abuse of children? No children are harmed in any way to write these stories, so there is no reason to forbid these stories. Another matter is whether somebody likes them. That's a matter of taste, a personal decision, part of one's freedom of thought and speech. People enjoying abuse of children must be mad, but their ideas on what exactly IS abuse of children might differ widely. And one can read about things one doesn't like, and still find that reading interesting. I sometimes read about war, and certainly I'm totally against war.

I have seen many cases of people mistaking nudity for pornography, specially in the US. Many other countries and societies are far more reasonable in this regard, considering nudity the natural state of people, rather than something shameful or evil. I see absolutely nothing wrong with real pictures of real nude people, including children, as long as these people (and in the case of children, their parents too) agree to them. In many European countries it's pretty common to see people of all ages tanning nude in public parks, and while there too some overly prudish people take offense, they can't stop them, most of the time. I suppose that in the US anyone TRYING to tan in the nude in a public place would be arrested and charged with who knows what terrible charges! But I'm digressing, as there is no picture section in the EA...

What I mean to say is that having fictional children appear in the nude in a story is REALLY tame, given that even describing TRUE, living children appearing nude in a story is tame compared to showing photos of them, which is STILL tame compared to seing them nude in a public park, and exactly that does happen quite commonly in Europe!

About castration of minors, if that was the offending thing: In true life of course it would be considered a crime, except if there were pressing medical reasons. Morally, it would be clearly evil if it's forced on the child. But as many of us who had that kind of childhood complex can attest, some boys desire it, and have good reasons for it. While it would STILL be a crime to do it, the question whether it's morally acceptable or evil to help a minor get such a wish fulfilled is a very interesting one, and VERY hard to answer. I cannot answer it, and some of my stories explore this dilemma, specially the one I was working on over the last months. Most of my older stories explore mostly the mixed feelings of boys just before puberty about castration, and these stories are sort of partial autobiographies. I don't think that anything about them could (or should) shock anybody. People getting shocked or disgusted by such stories must have unresolved issues far deeper than my own ones, and perhaps these stories could be good therapy for some of them.

About the matter of protecting minors from stumbling upon these stories on the web: First, there are FAR worse things out on the web, like graphic (I mean photos and videos) depictions of murder. And not only on the web, even on TV. Minors get to see that stuff all the time, often several times a day! Written fictional stories, even of the very worst kind ever published on the EA, are soft when compared to such graphic material of real, true, extreme violence. Society should commit to stop all the real violence and crime out there, including wars of all sorts, instead of trying to suppress written expression of ideas and thoughts.

Children have built-in filters: Stuff that is too adult for them just doesn't interest them. If a nine year old happens to stumble over a castration story, and actually starts reading it, he will find it odd and boring and will browse over to something else, to which he can relate better. No harm done. If instead a twelve year old stumbles over that same story, he might very well find it extremely interesting, and devour it. Kids that age NEED information about sexual matters, and WILL find it. I did, even in pre-internet times. You did too, probably.

No kid will take the EA as full truth! They aren't that stupid. Adults typically tend to severely underestimate the intelligence and understanding of children. I think that the present trend to "protect" minors from any sexual information, until it's far too late, is wrong, and also fruitless. Minors DO find information about sex, castration, they do find pornography, they do talk to their peers about all that, reinforce each other in misconceptions and in knowledge, and they DO have fun reading stories to which they can relate at that age.

If law really requires it, the EA should take steps to try blocking minors from gaining access, but I don't think that's morally good. I think minors should have the right to free access to information and to entertainment, and adults should learn to trust those built-in filters children have, to keep them safe.

I would invite everybody reading this to think back about his own childhood, and try to remember. Surely there was the older brother, friend, schoolmate, or even parent, showing you an issue of Playboy or something far worse, more than a few times. And surely at some age this repulsed you and you rejected it, and at some other age you were more interested and had a closer look, and surely all that didn't harm you!

About concrete ideas regarding the story archive: As I wrote above, people in many countries and cultures are far more tolerant of ideas different from their own, than in present day US, and even Canada. It should be a good step to look for a server in such a country, that truly respects free speech and the right to think free.

Running a dedicated server in somebody's home is another option. A good internet connection is required, and a dedicated computer running Linux. That eliminates the limitation of the server owner imposing restrictions, leaving only those of the internet service provider, which are probably less problematic. As long as one can be sure that the stories are not illegal wherever one lives, it shouldn't be a problem to run such a server, and as I understand the stories have been declared legal in the US. To satisfy self-appointed guardians of moral values, something to block minors from reading the stories could be implemented. The kids will surely find a way around that blockage, and the fact of being blocked out will make the EA far more attractive to them. But the blocking measure might protect the owners of the site.

If the story archive is not reinstalled, the EA will loose most of its appeal to most people, I guess. You know, empty wine bottles usually end up getting thrown away.Surely some other site will show up to serve the purpose previously served by the EA, and users will migrate there.

The stories are a valuable collection of literature of a very special kind. Even if this collection contains many rather ugly pieces, there are a lot of true gems in it. If there is any risk of the archive being lost right now, it should be zipped together and posted on some place, so that many different people can download and store it, complete, to assure its survival through difficult times. Having many copies at many places is the best guarantee for survival.

Think about what Bboy would say, if he could know that his legacy is in peril. We just cannot drop and trash those stories.

[A-1 (imported)]

My suggestion to the admins. Was short and sweet.

Find a Internet provider in a country that will allow the stories to be hosted and put them there. Then, they may be casually listed in a link to fictional stories from this, the main site.

Every so often at a scheduled time the site may be taken down and updated with new stories. The can to upload new stories may also be kept at the other site.

As for what might be considered objectionable, that was a discussion that occurred long ago, several crashes ago, if memory serves.

I remember communicating with Bboy about it and insisting that EXTREME stories about minors (toddlers) being castrated and/or nullo'ed and such NOT be allowed. Also, I insisted that NO MINORS be allowed on the site. I do believe that the site was tested by law enforcement and passed the test because Bboy did these things.

It was not ever my site, I was not an administrator, but certain things were discussed. I watched a site for females and advice to females go down because of providing advice to minors. I am not sure how they brought the site down or why, but it happened.

IT was my desire NOT to see this happen to the E.A. Thanks to Bboy, it did not.

Back to the subject. The forums, and the fiction archive MUST not be connected except by a hyperlink. This could be put in a member-submitted place. This way, if the fiction archive is taken out, the only thing that will go will be the stories.

At that point it an become a shell game, with links being left laying around that will take you to the fiction archive. This way, also, the fiction archive can be kept in several different places, with links, and each place containing only a certain type of story.

This way, not all of the Fiction archive will ever go down at one time. It becomes a shell game of sorts.

Hell, with the sorts of things (pornography) available out on the Internet, with sites going up and down and inter-connecting sites, it is almost impossible to keep track of them.

I cannot see how it would be possible to keep those stories out of circulation if individuals are determined enough to keep them up out there.

However, I would stick with the standards that the E.A. has established. It lessens the value of the target (Fiction Archive) and it makes it harder to hit an to bring down.

One more thing, whatever you all do about this, this thread and discussion needs to dissappear completely from the boards before the fiction archive goes back up.

[Wolf-Pup (imported)]

That's an interesting idea A-1. Wouldn't that require someone in whatever host country to be able to physically access the server where the stories are hosted?