Reining in the Controversy.

[Cainanite (imported)]

I wouldn't want to discourage others from volunteering for such a review, but the task would be daunting. Having spent several months moderating story submissions, I know how daunting it would be. It took two of us to do that job, reviewing just a few stories a day. If we're talking about 10,000 stories, I won't be volunteering for the job. Some of these stories are novel length. We've had volunteers for story moderation, foreign language stories, for example, that disappear after moderating a couple of stories.

I'm more thinking about how we would handle new submissions, than the full 10,000 story back archive. However, if people want it back, maybe we could get some good volunteers. At least for the stories that were considered to be the source of the problem.

[kwanmingmin (imported)]

According to a ruling by the US Supreme Court, the stories about minors that have been posted on EA, however offensive they may be to some people, are NOT child porn, and calling them that does not make it so. It isn't a matter of whether they are legal, it's a matter of will the web host allow them.

Those that want to post such stories might check out ASSTR, http://www.asstr.org/main.html. You can establish an account and even have your own web pages. It is more of an effort to post possibly than it was on EA, but it isn't as difficult as I first thought, when it was recommended to me by one of our members. I established an account, but it isn't under slammr, the name I use here. I don't have any stories posted to my section, but I did find some of my San Carlos Island stories that I had posted to EA on ASSTR or one of their sister sites. I had given someone permission to post them elsewhere.

It will be a sad loss if EA will no longer have minor stories - many of them are my favorites...

[janekane (imported)]

It will be a sad loss if EA will no longer have minor stories - many of them are my favorites...

To me, it would be a sadder loss if such stories as effectively would destroy the whole Eunuch Archive community Internet presence are ineptly retained. While I find "redeeming social value" within the stories folks whose life experiences preclude their understanding the underlying social structure issues on which some of the stories are based, not everyone is likely to find my view tolerable.

Sometimes difficult choices happen. Sometimes it is necessary to give up something to save something even more important.

For myself, having about as good an understanding of the relevant aspects of biology (and human society as a biological phenomenon), my guess, in getting the bilateral orchiectomy in 1986, was giving up my being socially-normal in terms of testosterone was likely to prevent my being biologically, and therefore socially, dead from cancer the risk of which might be dramatically reduced through my having very low testosterone.

A guess is a guess and not more than a guess. Yet the future is, as I experience life, a set of guesses (some may call them "choices") which are never well-understood until after they have happened.

I favor keeping what can be kept and letting go of what cannot be kept. I have undergone major to minor surgeries with the purpose of cancer risk reduction for 25 years. My brother did not do as I have done. He has been dead for over 24 years.

Let us not destroy the Eunuch Archive community in trying to save it. Lt. Calley tried that approach, at the My Lai "strategic hamlet" in the Song My village. Trying too hard to save something may destroy it beyond repair.

Sad losses sometimes happen. Sad losses are sometimes as good as it can be.

For myself, I prefer mercy to sacrifice. What if I have overlooked something, and mercy is sacrifice?

[Wolf-Pup (imported)]

I agree...my concern is more for the community than the stories. Of greater concern is that any of the folks running this place are forced to deal with any legal issues or harassment. However the stories come back, protecting our glorious leaders has to come first.

[Tad..... (imported)]

Methinks the whole ‘freedom of expression’ concept is seriously distorted. Let’s see…it’s fine to teach and encourage minors to hate {via Westboro Baptist ‘rallies’} yet intolerable to include minors in a fictionalized cathartic story.

In my own writings, regardless of how I’ve generated the villainous situation, I exclusively identify with the protagonist[s]. Judging from the zillions of hits on the stories, it would seem there are many out there that find similar release. It was Jesus, I think, who referenced studies whereby a higher availability of porn resulted in a lower level of public offenses. The stories conceivably do the same. One inclined to offend may instead find outlet in a story.

The stories then may be a vital part of th

e Eunuch Archive community Internet presence.

Excising them, in all likelihood, will have a negative effect. Conversely with public opinion opposed to such ‘vile’ writing, keeping them potentially could destroy it as well. It is, as janekane said, just a 'guess' as to which direction will best preserve the community’s future.

My ‘guess’ is that maintaining stories would be better than excising them. And if that means password protected/members only then so be it.

Having said that, if re-instating the stories would endanger the Admins then the stories should be trashed. I will not advocate jeopardizing these exceptional and diligent people.

Just a note…I would volunteer to help review stories as I am able.

Tad

[Cainanite (imported)]

I agree...my concern is more for the community than the stories. Of greater concern is that any of the folks running this place are forced to deal with any legal issues or harassment. However the stories come back, protecting our glorious leaders has to come first.

I agree. This community and those that run it should be protected. The question I am putting forward is - While best protecting this community and all involved, can the Fiction Archive return, and in what form?

I suggest that the stories of all themes can and do benefit the community. Not everyone gains help and solace in the same way. Some need art, and to vicariously live the consequences of what they are dealing with through story. During some of my darker moments,

the Fiction Archive was the only thing that

got me through. As valuable as it is, at those times, it wasn't the Discussion Board that helped me.

I propose there should be a way to both best protect the boards and its administrators, and see a return of the stories.

There have been some good ideas suggested.

- Keep the Fiction Archive hidden

behind password log in. Make th

e stories inaccessible to the casually surfing busybody.

- Host the stories on a separate domain, to better protect the Admins and this Forum.

- Create a pay membership to keep the stories self sufficient.

- Create a peer review of stories that are minor themed, or seem too explosive for general submission.

There are some ideas that seem too extreme to me, but may well be the correct path.

- Eliminate the Fiction Archive all together.

- Eliminate all Minor tagged stories from the Archive.

The one option we all know is not on the table, and will not be considered is this;

- Bring the Fiction Archive back the way it was.

It is clear that the volume of stories in the Archive is a problem. 10,000 stories is not a small amount. We know that only a couple of those stories were identified as the triggering problem. We know they were minor tagged themes.

I would be curious to know how many minor tagged stories are in the Archive. What percentage of stories do they represent? Can they be parsed easily from the rest of the Archive? If parsed out would there be a way to screen them for re-submission to the archive. Could there be a way to agree whether they still have value to our members, while putting the least risk on the shoulders of our Administrators?

I would like to see what talula, Kristoff, Paolo and the other Admins have to say on the matter. How much on their shoulders is too much work? Too much to ask of them. Where do they see the future of the Forums and the Archive? What is something feasible for them to do?

If they need manpower in transferring over the stories to the new format, then I would volunteer my services, but only after a decision has been made into the new submission guidelines.

My hope is that we can both best protect the Administrators, while retaining the freedom to share our stories in the Archive. In my mind, both the stories of the Archive and the discussions on the Forum have been equally valuable. I'm hoping there is a compromise that will best serve us all.

Protecting those that make it all possible however, trumps all my other concerns.

[Cainanite (imported)]

Sorry for the double post.

As a point of clarification on my idea of a Peer Review process. I was only suggesting that stories with the Minor tag be submitted to review.

Focusing on only the "Minor" tags, may reduce the amount of work involved in transferring over 10,000 or 11,000 stories.

As it is, there have been no concerns raised over stories with the tags;

- Rape

- Torture

- Incest

- Violence

- Slavery

- Amputation

- Snuff

- Bestiality

or anything tagged with the disclaimer

- Warning! Graphic Content.

A story tagged with all the above would apparently be just fine on the Archive, but one tagged simply Minor would cause too much controversy.

I apologize for this snarky remark. It just hit me how much it bothers me, that only one type of tag is being targeted. I know it is the world we live in. I know that others outside this community don't understand, and we have to protect ourselves and those that run the community. It just seems like we have to take a stand somewhere.

If the powers that be, and the casually surfing busybodies get their way, what will they come after next?

What do you hold dear, that may cause the next problem? Where do you draw the line?

For those that say, "Get rid of Minor tagged stories." or "Dump the whole Archive." Would you say the same if they came after the discussions on the forum?

What if they said, "It is no longer okay to counsel people on the forums who are seeking castration." and "That needs to be left to medical professionals. If you keep doing it, we will no longer host you."

How would you feel? How would you plead your case?

There is a wide variety of people in this community. Not all of us get help from the forums.

We are talking about no longer helping a section of our community. We are talking about silencing people who need help, and people who have something to say. We are talking about diminishing the service that the EA has performed.

I'm all for protecting the EA community. I'm willing to make sacrifices. I'm willing to help.

What I am not willing to do is to say to a portion of our community, "Sorry, no help for you. No voice for you. What you think and feel does not matter."

It seems like some people are saying, "Good riddance. You're not deserving of a voice. You're not welcome here. You are a monster and a vile person. You can't have a safe place to express what you are struggling with. Just keep it bottled up and go away."

I am not a sexual predator looking for child pornography. There are plenty of other places on the net for me to find that sort of thing if I were interested. Only on the EA's Fiction Archive did I find a community that was struggling like I was. That understood that retaining child like feelings and emotions was entangled with my feelings about sexuality and castration. Until I found the Fiction Archive, I thought I was a freak and totally alone. I hated myself for the thoughts I was fighting with. Reading stories from Il Musico, curious_guy and C van D, let me see myself in a different light. That what was haunting me wasn't as monstrous as I thought. I knew I wasn't alone.

Knowing I wasn't alone kept me from killing myself. Now what saved my life is being debated as unworthy. Is my life also unworthy? Is what I have to deal with really less than what you have to deal with?

This is what we are really discussing.

Is a segment of our population really to be ostracized? Are we no longer going to provide help to a group of people that need it?

Where do we draw the line?

[curious_guy (imported)]

The Waybackmachine has 8,922 stories. That means that there are fewer than 2,000 stories that need to be restored. We can put instructions on how users can access the Waybackmachine and a link on the new story archive.

[Wolf-Pup (imported)]

Sorry for the double post.

As a point of clarification on my idea of a Peer Review process. I was only suggesting that stories with the Minor tag be submitted to review.

I apologize for this snarky remark. It just hit me how much it bothers me, that only one type of tag is being targeted. I know it is the world we live in. I know that others outside this community don't understand, and we have to protect ourselves and those that run the community. It just seems like we have to take a stand somewhere.

If the powers that be, and the casually surfing busybodies get their way, what will they come after next?

What do you hold dear, that may cause the next problem? Where do you draw the line?

For those that say, "Get rid of Minor tagged stories." or "Dump the whole Archive." Would you say the same if they came after the discussions on the forum?

What if they said, "It is no longer okay to counsel people on the forums who are seeking castration." and "That needs to be left to medical professionals. If you keep doing it, we will no longer host you."

How would you feel? How would you plead your case?

Are you willing to put the fiction archive in YOUR name? Are you willing to accept all LEGAL responsibility for it and any of the possible ramifications of it being in YOUR name? While I appreciate the stories means a lot to you, it almost seems like it means TOO much.

I also notice you you keep saying you're willing to help go through the stories, but only if whatever new rules meet your criteria.

I've been on the site for years and years, but this is the first time I recall the fiction archive literally helping people. I have read hundreds of messages of people seeking help, information, and guidance about castration on the forums. That is what I feel should always be the primary focus of this site.

[Cainanite (imported)]

Are you willing to put the fiction archive in YOUR name? Are you willing to accept all LEGAL responsibility for it and any of the possible ramifications of it being in YOUR name? While I appreciate the stories means a lot to you, it almost seems like it means TOO much.

I also notice you you keep saying you're willing to help go through the stories, but only if whatever new rules meet your criteria.

I've been on the site for years and years, but this is the first time I recall the fiction archive literally helping people. I have read hundreds of messages of people seeking help, information, and guidance about castration on the forums. That is what I feel should always be the primary focus of this site.

Yes. I would be willing to host them in my name. Though I have neither the technical ability, nor the money to do such a thing. Yes.

Would I want restrictions on what would be on there? Yes. I feel the stories should have merit. I don't think I've ever said otherwise. However eliminating a certain topic, just because it is uncomfortable for some should be off the table.

You never heard of anyone helped by the archive? Well you have now. I wasn't posting on the forums about it, because at the time, the forums couldn't help me. I had not yet identified my physical problem. I didn't realize how that was subconsciously affecting me. My only solace was the Fiction Archive. It helped me work through a lot of ideas and concerns that I did not know how to verbalize.

It seems to me that you are saying that the only "true" help one can receive about castration desires is through the Forums. The only acceptable way to address confusing issues and feelings is on the forum.

I respectfully disagree.

I am

willing to help go through the stories,

and conform to guidelines that look for merit to the eunuch community. I am not willing to volunteer my time if the new guidelines include a full censorship of topics that I feel have value.

Yes, the stories mean a lot to me. They do to a lot of people I have conversed with privately.

Frankly I don't want to lose either the stories or the forum. I recognize that the Fiction Archive has to change. Frankly I'm surprised it went so long being open to anyone who surfed past. That, I think is the primary issue. It is not a matter of legality, but tastes, and protecting against offending the wrong person or group.

It seems that you are saying that you don't think my confusion, concerns or way of dealing with castration issues is valid.

Funny. I'm getting used to being told my feelings and concerns about castration aren't valid. I wonder if there is a community that can help me with this?