Reining in the Controversy.

[Losethem (imported)]

OH NO Paolo is looking for the kill switch. Its there but I disabled it

On the subject of the fiction archives or story board, I think one of the ways we may want to go is have it a paid site. Now before you all boo me out here is what I was thinking.

PayPal requires you to be an adult to use there site, so we require that you join using PayPal with a oh I don't know a $3.00 life time membership which would require you to give your email address and use a password to get in. We could then use a whole bunch of disclaimers that you must agree to before you get access.

Just a thought.

River

Ding! we have a winner. You don't even need to charge the $3.00 if you don't want to, just run the subscription through Paypal to ensure adults only. I discussed this with Paolo, perhaps making the message boards free and charging for access to the fiction archive. I gave him a very compelling reason, but I'll leave it out of here.

--LT

[Slammr (imported)]

Ding! we have a winner. You don't even need to charge the $3.00 if you don't want to, just run the subscription through Paypal to ensure adults only. I discussed this with Paolo, perhaps making the message boards free and charging for access to the fiction archive. I gave him a very compelling reason, but I'll leave it out of here.

--LT

Would PayPal allow itself to be used for access to such stories? I'm not sure you can use PayPal for access to porn even. It's different using PayPal for contributions as they do here and having it linked to a site for access to that site.

[fhunter]

Ding! we have a winner. You don't even need to charge the $3.00 if you don't want to, just run the subscription through Paypal to ensure adults only. I discussed this with Paolo, perhaps making the message boards free and charging for access to the fiction archive. I gave him a very compelling reason, but I'll leave it out of here.

--LT

Does PayPal work in all countries? You know it is not the problem of paying for access, it is the logistics of it.

[Wolf-Pup (imported)]

Websites aren't really bastions of Free Speech. They are owned/run by someone, and the owner(s) make the rules as to what is allowed. If they Wayback had been able to archive the site from the last few months, I'd say leave the old fiction archive alone and people could access it that way. If you chose to go that route about 2+ years of stories would be lost. The obvious advantage would be the ability to start clean and put a new system in place. If the authors are still members they could just resubmit their stories to the new fiction section.

I don't recall seeing file sections on other vB sites, but stories are attached to messages. I prefer them to be separate.

Ultimately it comes down to whose names are on the line for the site. I'd rather have no story archive than for anyone here to get hassles legally. I wouldn't want to be named on a lawsuit nor would I want anyone to get sued over it.

I understand that it is an outlet for frustrations/fantasies/issues, but moving forward I don't think it should be without stricter guidelines to protect Kristoff, Paolo, IE, Talula. It selfish for them to put their lives/reputations on the line for the sake of others in this manner. Just getting named in something appearing seedy could cost them family, jobs, personal safety.

I guess what I'm trying to say (maybe poorly) is that I really think the fiction archive really needs to start over from scratch with new guidelines. Utilizing the wayback for as many old stories are on there. I came here initially for the stories and how the Eunuch concept fit in with TG issues. I stayed because I liked it here. Although if I'd known the crisis was coming I wouldn't have bothered asking them to delete Batman.

Wolf-Pup

[Riverwind (imported)]

There is also a matter of going throw all the stories and edit them for content before re-posting them, there are thousands of stories, we will need a team of readers to approve them before posting. Just thought I would throw that out too.

This is not going to be a slam dunk like the bulletin board was, of course Talula would not call it a slam dunk but it took three days with everything else about 10 days from start to done, but the story board will take a lot of time, so many questions to answer before we can even start.

Format, what programs of system will be used to display it, approval process and who is going to do that, membership Pay, no pay, if pay how much for how long, who is going to maintain the software that runs the story board, where are we going to put it, how do we link it to the archive but keep it on a different site, there are 8500 stories to go be read and approved.

Its a different problem then the bulletin board, that we just moved all the data over, this is different, its going to be a lot of work for many people to bring it all the way back.

Please think of what you would like to see, how to display it, give examples. I go to several different sites that have stories and today they all use the same format, we should consider that as well, and if we do, who is going to code it?

More to think about,

After thought, if a team of 5 people took a stack of stories 20 per week and fixed them then posted it would only take 85 weeks to do the job, or just over a year and a half. That is not counting any new stories.

Another thought, if the authors of these stories are still members of the Archive it might be something we would ask them to do for their stories only.

River

[Cainanite (imported)]

There is also a matter of going throw all the stories and edit them for content before re-posting them, there are thousands of stories, we will need a team of readers to approve them before posting. Just thought I would throw that out too.

This is not going to be a slam dunk like the bulletin board was, of course Talula would not call it a slam dunk but it took three days with everything else about 10 days from start to done, but the story board will take a lot of time, so many questions to answer before we can even start.

Format, what programs of system will be used to display it, approval process and who is going to do that, membership Pay, no pay, if pay how much for how long, who is going to maintain the software that runs the story board, where are we going to put it, how do we link it to the archive but keep it on a different site, there are 8500 stories to go be read and approved.

Its a different problem then the bulletin board, that we just moved all the data over, this is different, its going to be a lot of work for many people to bring it all the way back.

Please think of what you would like to see, how to display it, give examples. I go to several different sites that have stories and today they all use the same format, we should consider that as well, and if we do, who is going to code it?

More to think about,

After thought, if a team of 5 people took a stack of stories 20 per week and fixed them then posted it would only take 85 weeks to do the job, or just over a year and a half. That is not counting any new stories.

Another thought, if the authors of these stories are still members of the Archive it might be something we would ask them to do for their stories only.

River

I've been thinking about this exact problem. A lot of authors have not kept back-up copies of their stories. A lot of those stories were like old friends to me. It would be very sad to see them disappear, because the author no longer has a copy to re-upload.

Perhaps if the author is still around, they could request to have an administrator send them back a copy, then the author would be free to revise, edit and re-submit. If no author comes forward, then the story remains where it is, without public access until a volunteer can review and re-submit.

As to volunteers, I'd happily be one, but as per my feelings, only for an Archive that is not too extremely censored. I guess I'd want to see what the new submission rules would be first, before I decide to volunteer for a huge undertaking.

I'm curious as to how the old stories were stored. Are they files on a server that were interpreted as html when viewed? Can the stories even be selected individually for editing and parsed to volunteers?

If the stories are in some kind of file format like .doc or .txt, has anyone thought of making a torrent for people to download? How many gigs of space does the archive actually take up? I have no idea how it works. I'd be interested to know.

[Slammr (imported)]

Although I came here for the stories, if I hadn't been helping Paolo with story moderation for the past several months - seems like years, sometimes - I would probably not have read any of the new stories.

As an author of a bunch of stories on the Archive, I would have no interest for reviewing or resubmitting any of my stories. Let them rest in peace. They accumulated about a million hits. Anyone that wanted to read them probably has, and since the first fiction I ever wrote was posted here, I'm not particularly proud of some of it. I hope my writing has improved some in the last nine years.

Much of it has minor content in it, anyway, and probably wouldn't survive new restrictions. Hell, many of Paolo's stories, some of the best writing on EA, wouldn't be allowed, if they were restricted because of minor content. Actually, I think some of the most poignant stories posted are about minors, but that might just be my opinion. And if stories about minors are allowed, how does one determine which is pornographic and which isn't? If no sex is included in the story, but some kid's balls are cut off, is that pornographic? Does sex in a story make it pornographic? I'd hate to be the one making that decision.

While I think it would be a shame for such a repository of eunuch literature - if may I call it literature - to be wiped out, if we can't restore the whole thing, I think we should dump it and start over from scratch; but that's my opinion. I just don't know how we could separate allowed content from disallowed content. Whereas Paolo and I have strictly enforced tags, that wasn't always done. I may have even let some foreign language stories slip through without proper tags, because translation software doesn't always provide accurate translation. As long as slang isn't used, it does a decent job; but if there is a lot of slang used in the story, it doesn't.

[janekane (imported)]

When I first came upon the Eunuch Archive, several years ago, through a sequence of unintended blunders on my part, and found myself behind what I thought might be barriers meant to keep non-members out (it is my best guess that I mistakenly stumbled through an inadvertent back door, courtesy of web crawlers), I read a couple stories and thought they might be like checking the fuel level in a gasoline tank having an air-fuel vapor mixture centered within the explosive range, with a lit stick of Dynamite, not because of the stories and their content, but because of the chance of the stories being terribly misunderstood.

For me, some of the stories most likely to be deemed objectionable (by being misunderstood?) have the most significant content regarding the form, function, and structure of human society and human socialization methods, particularly with respect to what is, at the brain biology level, of abuse and of abuse prevention. For myself, the most abusive experiences I have ever encountered were of people assuming authority over me whose sense of authority was as though to deny my ever being a real, hence valid, person.

There is useful content within the most socially-objectionable of the stories; indeed, my guess is that the importance of the content may be strongly positively correlated with the degree of social objection. More than this, regarding my sense of importance, may need to wait until the MoM.

[Cainanite (imported)]

Perhaps It would be better if possibly objectionable stories were treated with more of a community spirit.

What I think would be good is for stories to go into a kind of peer review process, to see if they have value to the community or if they are too explosive to be openly published.

In terms of how this would be done (and I have no idea as to the logistics or if it is even possible) I'd suggest a separate section housing the stories waiting to be approved. Members of a certain reputation could access them and recommend (vote?) either for or against publication in the archive. Perhaps a hidden section where the stories and their merit could be discussed.

If this were not possible, because we don't want even the hint of objectionable stories on the site, then could a mailing list be created in which stories are sent to interested members (a review panel)? They could individually review, and vote to include or exclude based on content and merit.

This might be a solution to weed out those stories that are more wanton and raw. Sexualization for the sake of sexualization. But perhaps allow for those minor themed stories that have a greater meaning, or allegory for the Archive members.

As with Slammr, there are many stories I have read, tagged Minor, that are beautifully written, and speak to the nature of the eunuch experience. Some of these also contain sex and sexual situations, but are about much more than that. I'd hate to lose those stories simply because they contain a minor theme.

Is a peer review process something that would work for this situation? Could peer review be an alternative to outright censorship of objectionable content?

Would that even address the problem the Archive created for the boards in the first place?

I know I'd volunteer to be on that review board. I think the archive is that important.

[Slammr (imported)]

I wouldn't want to discourage others from volunteering for such a review, but the task would be daunting. Having spent several months moderating story submissions, I know how daunting it would be. It took two of us to do that job, reviewing just a few stories a day. If we're talking about 10,000 stories, I won't be volunteering for the job. Some of these stories are novel length. We've had volunteers for story moderation, foreign language stories, for example, that disappear after moderating a couple of stories.