things you don't generally hear about cars

Arab Nights (imported)
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Re: things you don't generally hear about cars

Post by Arab Nights (imported) »

fhunter wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:23 pm In italy, in 1920-s it was solved by combining two V-12 in line. That was in an airplane engine, for the Schneider trophy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_AS.6

As for the cars? I do not know how to fit something like this in a car.

This would not be an issue for redneck tech. Look to country and western music for your inspiration:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWHniL8MyMM
punkypink (imported)
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Re: things you don't generally hear about cars

Post by punkypink (imported) »

fhunter wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:23 pm In italy, in 1920-s it was solved by combining two V-12 in line. That was in an airplane engine, for the Schneider trophy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_AS.6

As for the cars? I do not know how to fit something like this in a car.

That would have worked in the 20s, when cars were more an engine with seats and wheels tacked on, but less so today, especially with aerodynamic concerns, safety standards and the like to consider.

However I would like to point out that a larger displacement does not necessarily mean a physically larger engine. The key here is the displacement, how much the vol of the inside of a cylinder chamber changes between TDC and BDC. Changing the conrod, and the pistons themselves, not to mention the crankshaft, can lead to increased displacement without an increase in physical size. Engines with large displacements were huge in the 20s because at the time, technology was cruder, and you simply had to have huge studry blocks to withstand the forces of increased compression, or in an attempt to avoid increased compression, simply have more cylinders with a more "relaxed" compression ratio.

In today's world, there is actually little need to increase the physical size of the engine block itself for increased displacement and hence power output. However, the ancillaries such as water and oil coolers, might have to increase in physical size to cope with the increased need for cooling capacity.
DeaconBlues (imported)
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Re: things you don't generally hear about cars

Post by DeaconBlues (imported) »

Sweetpickle (imported) wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:37 pm Nerdy comments:

One of the reasons for the lack of V-10, V-12 and V16 engines is that

for maximum smoothness the product of the number of cylinders and

the angle between the cylinder banks should be 720. So we have

90 degree V-8, 72 degree V-10, 60degree V-12 and 45 degree V-16.

Those bigger ones have such a sharp angle that it causes cooling and casting problems.

GM, and others, made Straight 8 motors up into the 60's.

In about 1975 GM decided they needed a V-6. To save time

and money they used a cut down V-8. The 90 deg angle meant

the motor was syncopated, fire-fire-fire-skip-fire-fire-fire-skip.

Typical GM screw the customer cars.

🙏

This is the first time I have heard about the 720 formula (#cyl's. x V angle = 720). Very interesting... Has anyone ever tried a three cylinder, I guess you would call it a "W" -3 or W6 or W9 etc. configuration? What sort of angle would be needed there?

I remeber in my "Airframe and Powerplant" class that the aircraft "rotory" type engines (NOT a "Wankle" type rotory but the other sort of rotory, with the cylinders in a full circle around the crank shaft), they told me that this sort of engine always had an odd number of cylinders (usually 7 or 9).
smoothie (imported)
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Re: things you don't generally hear about cars

Post by smoothie (imported) »

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=4T ... edium#t=35

************** AMAZING DRIVING!!!!!!!*********

This might be something to try out with my GT 500 Super Snake, maybe!!
punkypink (imported)
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Re: things you don't generally hear about cars

Post by punkypink (imported) »

smoothie (imported) wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:07 pm http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=4T ... edium#t=35

************** AMAZING DRIVING!!!!!!!*********

This might be something to try out with my GT 500 Super Snake, maybe!!

Hmm that is certainly some admirable driving. However, speaking as someone who once was in training for single seater racing until I realised I simply could not afford it, it actually isn't that difficult. A large part of precision lies in the vehicle itself, in how well it is able to precisely translate driver input into the desired output, as well as send the needed feedback that allows the driver to be precise.

As part of the attempt to begin a racing career, I raced professional sprinter karts, and karts are very very precise things, even at high speeds. We regularly topped out near 100mph on our pro-karts on a twisty tight circuit about half a mile long back home, and they weren't even shifters, but used a single sprocket with a fixed drive ratio. The precision of control on these things were phenomenal AND adjustable. Part of the track was a long 180 degree double apex curve, and we used to drift around it for fun. It was not difficult at all to shift the angle of slip when we were drifting for fun, and clip both apexes very cleanly and precisely plus have the rear outside wheel clip the entry and exit curbs cleanly as well.

These karts were so precise that we often practiced saloming between cones spaced closer to each other than the kart was long. Given that they're about as wide as they're long, it does mean you have to go thru the gap at 90 degrees to the line of cones, turn it pivoting on the inside front wheel by oversteer, and then do the same again, with millimetre precision. Granted, you'd still have to be decent enough a driver, but it was doable. What Ken Block is doing there, is impressive to most outsiders, but to anyone who's been lucky enough to be involved in motorsports proper in some form, the insider knowledge plays a huge part. Not to mention Mr Block has a nice huge empty area to play with, where most of the tricks requiring more ludicris slip angles in areas with plastic barriers defining the boundary rather than more painful things to crash into. There was one corner where I felt a tree's position was worth some mild concern, but that's about it. Sadly Mr Block doesn't seem to do as well competing against other drivers when the scenary is beyond his control.

For truly impressive driving displays, where it isn't just enough for the vehicle to be a precise and compliant tool in one's hands, check this out:

Patrick Snijers at the '88 Manx Rally

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJB8BtkSEHM

No doubt having a compliant, precise machine helps, but still takes some real guts and skills to do that on a narrow twisty road. Not to mention Mr Block has the benefit of a SWB 4WD factory-backed machine, while Mr Snijers was in a RWD M3 that was independently prepared by Prodrive without any factory backing from BMW at the time(BMW did not want to get involved with rallying and was focusing purely on touring cars).

On another note, I don't quite think you'd be able to do all of that with your GT500, on the simple fact that a lot of what he's able to do is due to the fact that his WRC fiesta has 4WD. The last bit where he spins the car with the axis through the dead center of the car itself, that is a purely 4WD trait, I have never, ever seen a RWD car or FWD car pull that one off.
tugon (imported)
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Re: things you don't generally hear about cars

Post by tugon (imported) »

DeaconBlues (imported) wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:05 pm Has anyone ever tried a three cylinder, I guess you would call it a "W" -3 or W6 or W9 etc. configuration? What sort of angle would be needed there?

The "Sprint" and "Sprint Metro" differed in their engines, though both were computer controlled carb systems. From 1985 to 1988, the carbureted 1.0 L 3-cylinder engine used a hemispherical head design. Later, fuel injection required the cylinder head for 1989 be redesigned to add the additional cooling required, reducing gas mileage.

The Sprint was originally offered in parts of the western US for the 1985 model year; subsequently Chevrolet marketed the Sprint across North America. All models were initially 3-dr hatchbacks. Starting in 1986, a five-door hatchback version was offered, called the Sprint Plus. That year, another model called the Sprint ER was offered that included a few extra features, such as an "upshift" light to indicate the ideal speed to shift to the next highest gear on manual transmission models. Although air conditioning was offered in all years, the three-speed automatic transmission wasn't offered until 1986. All models featured front-wheel drive and 12-inch tires.

Turbocharged versions of the 1.0 L 3-cylinder engine were available in the Turbo Sprint from 1987 to 1990 (1987–1988 in U.S.). Colors were limited to red, white and blue for the Turbo Sprint. The corresponding Suzuki was not turbocharged; instead, it used a 1.3 L 4-cylinder engine.

Information just for fun.
Losethem (imported)
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Re: things you don't generally hear about cars

Post by Losethem (imported) »

Things you never hear about a car...

"gee, I wish they would design it to go slower..."
twaddler (imported)
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Re: things you don't generally hear about cars

Post by twaddler (imported) »

Losethem (imported) wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:52 pm Things you never hear about a car...

"gee, I wish they would design it to go slower..."

"They should really bring back the Pacer -- and give it fins!"
Dave (imported)
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Re: things you don't generally hear about cars

Post by Dave (imported) »

I liked tail fins on cars.
punkypink (imported)
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Re: things you don't generally hear about cars

Post by punkypink (imported) »

Losethem (imported) wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:52 pm Things you never hear about a car...

"gee, I wish they would design it to go slower..."

They are, actually.

The recent design trend has moved towards focusing on the driving feel rather than outright speed.

Mazda for example, is going back to basics with the next gen MX-5(Miata), by making it lighter (under the 1 ton mark) and less grippy, preferring to focus on the way it handles and feels rather than outright grip. If I'm not wrong they also do not plan to increase the bhp of the engine itself.
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