Ending a sentence with a preposition.

[Mac (imported)]

Whenever I write a sentence that ends with a preposition I still look at it and say, "I can't do that shit". I feel that I have to re-write it. I guess that some rules are hard to forget. The irony is that I always hated english grammar.

[Arab Nights (imported)]

Mac has stated my feelings exactly.

[Coyan Hyde (imported)]

I must be a boring loser because I feel compelled to post on this thread.

The final question on grammar and punctuation should be whether or not someone can read your sentences and understand what you meant on the first pass. Everything else is style.

If people have to struggle to understand you, they're not going to bother reading your stories, and you will have wasted your time writing them.

Steven Pinker wrote that grammar is descriptive not prescriptive. The purpose of grammar is to make communication as unambiguous and otherwise clear as practical.

Rules for grammar change over time. How many people say thee and thou anymore? Modern English speakers say you. By the end of the 21st century, the distinction between who and whom will be completely lost, as well. (It practically is, already.)

Fortunately, English shed most of its gender and case a few hundred years ago. I've struggled to learn German because I don't really care whether a book is masculine, feminine, or neuter (I have a different opinion about people--and, yes, I do know the difference between sex and gender, so save your fingers). I don't really care whether it's der buch or den buch (or duh buch). Word order is a much simpler way of communicating case.

BTW--Is this post sufficiently long to demonstrate that I proudly bear the title "boring loser"? (Please note that I purposely put the question mark outside of the quotation marks just to tweak the more interesting readers.)

[ClassyBitch (imported)]

Mr. Anagram closes the book on this topic, a book with chapters on wire service style along with clippings of the long-standing debates between the proponents of wire style, the users of said style, and William F. Buckley – who would have agreed with that last wire-contrary comma.

Pawn to King Four

(Yeah, forgot the Jr. I know, but that would have added a comma possibly confused with the one I called “last.”)

LOL

(Next year, I hear The NY Times is going full tweet style front to back.)

[gareth19 (imported)]

I don't really care whether it's der buch or den buch (or duh buch).

It is das Buch (nominative and accusative neuter); der Buch would be a nominative masculine; den Buch would be accusative masculine; the distinction between those two is not one of gender but of case. And Buch is a noun, so it is capitalized.

[Coyan Hyde (imported)]

It is das Buch (nominative and accusative neuter); der Buch would be a nominative masculine; den Buch would be accusative masculine; the distinction between those two is not one of gender but of case. And Buch is a noun, so it is capitalized.

Thanks for the thought, but I already know that. I just can't remember it fast enough to speak at a reasonable speed. I was talking about both gender and case. Perhaps I should have used der and das for my example.

My point was that, somewhere between German and Modern English, most of that stuff was lost, greatly simplifying the language. (To reintroduce complexity, we borrowed spelling patterns from every language on the planet.) About the best German my poor little brain can manage are phrases along the lines of "Die Wand ist weiss"--not very stimulating conversation.

Thank you, though, for making a good point about style: in German, all nouns are capitalized; in English, just proper nouns get capitalized.

My larger point is that I would hate for authors with good ideas to get hung up on grammar and usage, being afraid that their work would be nit-picked to death--not that anyone is doing that.

I do share other's frustration with stories that are so badly written that my head spins trying to figure out what the author meant.

[guillotineme2004 (imported)]

Good analysis by all. It reminds me of a stuff-shirt joke:

Minnesota kid does well in high school and gets to Harvard on full scholarship. He is walking around campus, disoriented, he asks a professor-looking type with a tweed jacket for some help,

"Sir, where's the library at?"

The professor scolds the midwestern freshman,

"Son, you are obviously a country bumpkin because at Harvard University we do not end our sentences with prepositions."

The freshman then rephrases to make the correction,

"Where's the library at, asshole?"

Thought this was quite funny

My two cents... my seventh grade English teacher ran a pretty tight ship and I can assure you that you are NOT supposed

to end a sentence with a preposition.

...to this day I check myself when writing to make sure I don't violate this rule:-\

[A-1 (imported)]

Mr. Anagram closes the book on this topic, a book with chapters on wire service style along with clippings of the long-standing debates between the proponents of wire style, the users of said style, and William F. Buckley – who would have agreed with that last wire-contrary comma.

Pawn to King Four

(Yeah, forgot the Jr. I know, but that would have added a comma possibly confused with the one I called “last.”)

LOL

(Next year, I hear The NY Times is going full tweet style front to back.)

Classy BITCH,,, LOVE that avatar.

Remind me to tell you about the guy who took a ball bat and walked over to another guy's car at which time the 2nd guy pulled out his trusty Japanese sword and chopped off fingers until the bat got dropped.

Can somebody else suggest to me what other types of words that I can end a sentence WITH?

[Uncle Flo (imported)]

Classy

Can somebody else suggest to me what other types of words that I can end a sentence WITH?

The only ones I could think of go back to my days as a boat pilot. They seemed just fine at the time, but on review they are not quite right for most other situations, colorful as they are. --FLO--

[tugon (imported)]

Can somebody else suggest to me what other types of words that I can end a sentence WITH?

Can somebody else suggest to me what other types of words

with which I can end a sentence?

No, sorry I am unable to help.

I can welcome you back.