Twinsenboy (imported) wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:54 pm
So your aunt is one for tight cuts, huh? Sorry, but that got me I love women who hasn't gotten anything against having her own opinions about men and our equipments (that we share with them anyway=) If somebody goes off on you now, I think they also have a problem.. I'm sure you haven't said anything inappropriate.
She was; she's been dead for fifteen years or so, but that was Texas in the late 40s. All boys were circumcised, and the doctor left a little loose foreskin on the bottom behind. As I remember, my aunt was suggesting that my mom have it trimmed off.
I was thirteen before I ever saw an uncircumcised cock, which was on a kid that had immigrated from Yugoslavia. I thought it looked really weird.
Taking this thread a little off course, I guess, but I'm beginning to think this thread has about outlived its usefulness any way.
Ironically, when I was thirteen I was in class with a boy from Boznia, and he suddenly disappeared one day to get his little glans permanently exposed in one of our hospitals. He's a muslim, so.. Por lad. The rest of us boys sure felt embarassed for his extra "nudity" in the showers and locker rooms from that day on.
I guess you may close any thread anytime you wish.
While reading this thread, I can't help wondering about the weird taboos some people have. From some posts, I understand that many people here would be deeply embarrassed, afraid, shocked, whatever, and feel guilty, just for seeing a nude child, even if it's their son or grandson! How can that be? Where is this guilt coming from? That's definitely not normal!
It seems to me that all the people who stated such apprehensions about seeing a child's genitals live in the USA. Is that true? I can't imagine such worries in my environment.
Here it's perfectly normal for children to walk nude from their bedroom to the bathroom, and parents seeing them. What could be wrong with that? And locker rooms at public beaches and swimming pools have no age restrictions. Small boys and grown men use the same locker rooms, and nobody sees anything bad in that. Even more, some beaches can be used without any obligation of wearing any sort of clothes. The point is: Why do we have to hide specific parts of our bodies? Answer: We don't. Specially in the case of children.
I don't know of anybody who got sick, blind, or whatever, from accidentally seeing something as horrible, dangerous and absolutely forbidden as the "privates" of a little child! Nor do I know of any little child that got damaged by such a reckless action as an adult seeing it nude.
To answer the original question of this thread: My dad never actually measured my penis, but he had ample opportunity to see me, every part of me, from the day I was born, until roughly the time when I got my first job and moved out of my parent's home. It was just normal. When we went to beaches, for example, we used the locker rooms together, and there were no divisions in them.
My dad never measured any other parts of my body either. I suppose it was enough for him that he saw me growing up normally, and scientific recording of my growth wasn't in his range of interests. But I had two classmates who reported that their parents often measured them and compared the values to tables, to see if they were doing OK with their development. And those measurements included the genitals, just as they included the stature, the length of arm and leg bones, shoulder circumference, and weight. They found it funny and bragged about it. One of those parents was a doctor, the other was a physics professor, certainly a scientifically minded sort of guy. What those classmates told the rest of us triggered some of us to take some serious measures ourselves, and compare notes. More bragging was in order, of course. And in cases of dispute, some scientific proof was necessary, with witnesses...
In any case, it seems clear that in my part of the world the relationship with our own bodies, and those of our kids, grandkids, friends, and even complete strangers, is much more direct, simple, open and healthy than in some other parts of the world. I would call that a cultural difference.
Of course, those of you who live in prudish cultures where the sight of a child's genitals is synonymous with sin, guilt, and all sorts of evil associations, don't have much choice but deal with it and abide by those rules, at least to some extent. But knowing that this unreasonable horror about nakedness is not universal might help you in not taking things stricter than they need to be.
Maybe the most important thing is this: Be consequent. If you taught your son that nudity is indecent, you can't suddenly sneak up on him and force a ruler to his penis. That would make him feel REALLY ashamed, and is mighty unfair. On the other hand, if it's still time, maybe it would be a good idea to teach your children that nudity is NOT indecent at all, but is natural, and opninions to the contrary are simply a matter of specific cultures. That will make it much easier to monitor their normal development, and talk openly to them about pubertal matters, sex, and the like, when it's time for that.
But for that to work, you must first believe it yourself. If you don't, then there is probably no better route than to raise your children in the same beliefs and customs you were raised in, and make the best of it.
Il Musico, psycological advisor ad honorem for assorted prudish parents and grandparents.
Il Musico makes some good points. Many in the USA are unduly uptight about nudity.
Actually, come to think of it, I went to college at UCSD in San Diego. UCSD is on the bluffs above Black's Beach, the most popular nude beach in San Diego at that time. I've probably seen thousands of naked kids of all ages down there. Whole famiies went down there and got naked.
I remember watching a particularly cute 14 - 15 year-old girl play volleyball nude and loved watching her. Does that make me a pervert? I didn't cover my eyes or go elsewhere. I sat and watched the whole game. Didn't get a hardon - it was a nude beach, and that might have been embarrassing, but I did enjoy it.
In defense of the USA, although it can be an uptight place - depends on where you live in it - the member that got so uptight about seeing a nude grandson is from the UK, although I think A-1's post was a little over the top, and he's from the USA.
When my daughters were young, the two of them and I went on a camping trip up in the Sierras, camping out at a lake after a long hike. The three of us swam naked in the lake, and there was nothing sexual about it. We didn't have swim suits and we were hot and tired. We were from California, if that makes a difference. Generally, people from California are a little less uptight about such things.
Too, it was the 70s and people in California might show up anywhere nude. If you went camping at the Grand Canyon or Yosimite and came to a stream, you would probably see someone nude, and if I was there, one of them probably would have been me.
I also went to the University of Washington in the late 60s. We had an athletic ativities building with basketball courts, handball courts, and such. It had a sauna. It was coed, but some guys went into the sauna naked, even though girls were in it. I was one of them.
When I was in Alaska in the 70s, a friend took me over to someone's house. They had a large sauna and had people over each week. Probably forty or fifty people, male and female, all naked, were there. You stood in line, waiting for your turn in the sauna, talking with naked strangers and thought nothing of it.
I went to a store in town afterward and was waited on by a cute blond. She seemed familiar, but I didn't recognize her at first. The only time I'd seen her had been at the sauna, and she had been naked.
I agree with Il Musico. No one should have hangups about nudity, and of course, I agree that no father should go around measuring his son's dick. I'm the only one that measured my dick.
Dave (imported) wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:45 pm
As for seeing kids naked, I've been stuck to change diapers on 7 kids so far and I'm only an Uncle. I've taken kids to public swimming pools and they (and I) get into swimsuits in a locker room. It was the middle of winter and there was no choice. I actually taught swimming years ago and there were near to a fifty kids, a dozen adults and swim instructors changing in the locker rooms.
Seeing naked children is entirely different from examining or obsessing over naked children. Casual nudity is different from exploratory nudity.
Riverwind (imported) wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:01 pm
So far this chat is fine, make sure it stays that way. No talking about the pros or cons of circumcision.
Thank you,
RiverThat's the second time somebody has said "pros or cons" about circumcisions on this thread. And I haven't said anything about it =P Slammr did already say that this thread shouldn't evolve into that as there are enough threads about it already. Doctors earning $400 each prepuce they amputate from an unconsenting patient is just a common knowledge fact, not a pro neither a con about having a bare glans (I "auto-circumcise" myself).
But thanks for all the warnings anyway.
Yes, I'm from Europe, and as I've already stated, I think that those who think "porno" when seeing a naked child are having both issues and problems.. Definitely not those who have no problems about it. Duh. I'm trying to just make objective observations. You won't hear me go on about pros or cons anything anymore.
I think some of your stories are like the 'Friends' episode where Chandler goes to Joey's tailor and gets groped. Joey says that's just the way tailors do it, and Chandler replies "yes, if they're tailors ... in prison". Just because Joey grew up that way doesn't mean it was normal.
Anyway, my point is that if you had parents, uncles, aunts or any other family member or adult discussing the size or condition of your or another kid's genitals, that is really not normal or appropriate.
I'm quite comfortable with nudity, but the issue is the attention on the genitals. Especially it is wrong when they are transferring their hang-ups onto the impressionable kids -- I mean seriously, if your aunt says your circumcision isn't tight enough that is psychological abuse and possibly sexual abuse. Sorry but it is.
Just because something happened "naturally" or "casually" in your family doesn't make it normal or appropriate. Abuse often perpetuates and can be very subtle. Anything that adversely affects a child's self-esteem is abuse. As an example from my own family, my mom says when she was a kid her father took a picture of her and her friends in bikinis and then commented "I think this picture is going to be under-developed". That sounds like a funny joke, but she remembers this to this day (and her friends probably do too), and that is abusive.
SplitDik (imported) wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:47 am
I think some of your stories are like the 'Friends' episode where Chandler goes to Joey's tailor and gets groped. Joey says that's just the way tailors do it, and Chandler replies "yes, if they're tailors ... in prison". Just because Joey grew up that way doesn't mean it was normal.
Anyway, my point is that if you had parents, uncles, aunts or any other family member or adult discussing the size or condition of your or another kid's genitals, that is really not normal or appropriate.
I'm quite comfortable with nudity, but the issue is the attention on the genitals. Especially it is wrong when they are transferring their hang-ups onto the impressionable kids -- I mean seriously, if your aunt says your circumcision isn't tight enough that is psychological abuse and possibly sexual abuse. Sorry but it is.
Just because something happened "naturally" or "casually" in your family doesn't make it normal or appropriate. Abuse often perpetuates and can be very subtle. Anything that adversely affects a child's self-esteem is abuse. As an example from my own family, my mom says when she was a kid her father took a picture of her and her friends in bikinis and then commented "I think this picture is going to be under-developed". That sounds like a funny joke, but she remembers this to this day (and her friends probably do too), and that is abusive.
In defense of the aunt, the discussion probably started out about a rash I had on my dick, and I don't believe there was any sexual intent in the discussion. The oldest child in my father's family, she was a control freak - we were actually living in a house owned by her at the time - and freely gave her opinion.
Certainly, adults should be careful about what they say about a kid's sexual development. Obviously, her comment made an impression. I remember the instance clearly enough 63 years later that I can picture it in my mind.
Until then, I'd never noticed that little bit of extra skin on my dick, but afterward, I was certainly aware of it.
Slammr (imported) wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:14 pm
In defense of the aunt, the discussion probably started out about a rash I had on my dick, and I don't believe there was any sexual intent in the discussion.
You're still normalizing an abnormal experience. Abuse does not have to be sexual. Most abuse is probably psychological. Why would your mom and aunt be discussing a rash on your dick in front of you? It is true that a mother might consult other mothers on how to care for their kid, but it is usually done in private. It is similarly inappropriate to discuss a kid's psychological issues, their acne, any physical deficiency, etc. in front of them.
Also, whether or not it was sexual intention on her part, it still may have had sexual connotations for you. A woman commenting on the non-ideal state of your genitals will have a sexual aspect to a formative boy's mind.
Slammr (imported) wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:14 pm
Obviously, her comment made an impression. I remember the instance clearly enough 63 years later that I can picture it in my mind.
Exactly. That is why it was wrong.
Obviously we have to endure all sorts of challenges, abuses and setbacks in life. So I'm not saying you should feel like a victim or anything. (which you don't). However, I just don't think you should brush off the wrongness of it either.
I love women who hasn't gotten anything against having her own opinions about men and our equipments (that we share with them anyway=) If somebody goes off on you now, I think they also have a problem.. I'm sure you haven't said anything inappropriate.