Can a Christian be a Conservative?

[transward (imported)]

Thought I would throw this out for comment.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-lux/ ... 70361.html

"...

Conservative Christians' primary argument regarding Jesus and politics is that all he cared about was spiritual matters and an individual's relationship with God. As a result, they say, all those references from Jesus about helping the poor relate only to private charity, not to society as a whole. Their belief is that Jesus, and the New Testament in general, is focused on one thing and one thing only: how do people get into heaven.

The Jesus of the New Testament was of course extremely concerned with spiritual matters: there is no doubt whatsoever about his role or interest in the issues of the day, that the spiritual well-being of his followers was a major interest of his. How much he was involved with or interested in the political situation of the day is a matter of much debate and interpretation. Some say it was a lot and others that it was pretty limited or, as conservatives would say, not at all. However, much of a priority or focus it was, though, if you actually read the Gospels, it is clear that Jesus' main concern in terms of the people whose fates he cared about was for the poor, the oppressed, and the outcast. Comment after comment and story after story in the Gospels about Jesus relates to the treatment of the poor, generosity to those in need, mercy to the outcast, and scorn for the wealthy and powerful. And his philosophy is embedded with the central importance of taking care of others, loving others, treating others as you would want to be treated. There is no virtue of selfishness here, there is no "greed is good," there is no invisible hand of the market or looking out for Number One first. There is nothing about poor people being lazy, nothing about the undeserving poor being leeches on society, nothing about how I pulled myself up by my own bootstraps so everyone else should, too. There is nothing about how in nature, "the lions eat the weak," and therefore we shouldn't help the poor because it weakens them. There is nothing about charity or welfare corrupting a person's spirit.

What there is: quote after quote about compassion for the poor. In Jesus' very first sermon of his ministry, the place where he launched his public career, he stated the reason he had come: to bring good news to the poor, liberty to the captives, to help the oppressed go free, and that he was here to proclaim a year of favor from the Lord -- which in Jewish tradition meant the year that poor debtors were forgiven their debts to bankers and the wealthy. In Luke 6, Jesus says the poor and hungry will be blessed, and the rich will be cursed. He urges his followers to sell all their possessions and give them to the poor. The one time he really focuses on God's judgment and who goes to heaven is in Matthew 25, where he says those who go to heaven will be those who fed the hungry, clothed the naked, visited those in prison, gave shelter to the hungry, and welcomed the stranger -- and those who don't make it were the ones who refused to help the poor and oppressed.

And he was a really serious class warrior, too -- he wasn't just into helping the poor; he didn't seem to like rich folks very much. In Matthew 6, he focuses on the love of money as a major problem. In Luke 11, he berates a wealthy lawyer for burdening the poor. In Luke 12, he says that the wealthy who store up treasure are cursed by God. In Luke 14, he says if we throw a party, we should invite all poor people and no rich people, and suggests that the wealthy already turned down their invitation to God's feast, and that it is the poor who will get into heaven (a theme repeated multiple times). He says that the rich people will have a harder time getting to heaven than a camel trying to pass through the eye of a needle. He chases the wealthy bankers and merchants from the Temple.

I have never heard a conservative Christian quote any of these verses -- not once, and I have been in a lot of discussions with Christian conservatives, and heard a lot of their speeches and sermons. The one verse they always quote (and I mean always -- I have never talked to a conservative Christian about economics and not heard them quote this verse) is the one time in which Jesus says that "the poor will always be with us." The reason they love this quote so much is that they interpret that line to mean that in spite of everything else Jesus said about the poor, that since the poor will always be with us, we don't need to worry about trying to help them. Apparently since the poor will always be with us, we can go ahead and screw them. But Jesus making a prediction that there will always be oppressive societies doesn't mean he wanted us to join the oppressors. By clinging desperately to that one verse in the Bible, and ignoring all the others about the poor and the rich, Christian conservatives show themselves to be hypocrites, plain and simple.

The Jesus of the New Testament spent his public career preaching about the nature of God and our relationship to God, but also about how we should deal with each other. He repeatedly blessed mercy, gentleness, peacemaking, community, and taking care of each other. He lifted up the poor and oppressed, and spoke poorly of the wealthy and powerful. If anyone in modern society talked like he did, you can bet your bottom dollar that conservatives would condemn that person as a class warrior, a socialist. Jesus may not have been primarily concerned with politics, but for what politics he did have, it is virtually impossible to argue that he was anything but a progressive thinker.

I want to close on one other note here. I focused here on the Jesus of the Gospels (principally Matthew, Mark and Luke -- the Gospel of John is almost all focused on mystical spiritualism), but Jesus is not exactly the only Bible character concerned with issues of social and economic justice. All of the first five books of the Torah (the Old Testament for Christians) talk a lot about justice for the poor; the Psalms are full of verses about the helping poor; every Old Testament prophet castigates the Jewish people (and yes, their governments) for mistreating the poor. And in the New Testament, there are some dynamite passages promoting progressive thinking aside from all of the Jesus quotations I mentioned. Three of my very favorites:

In Acts 2: 44-45 says: "The faithful all lived together and owned everything in common: they sold their goods and possessions and shared out the proceeds among themselves according to what each are needed." My question: did Karl Marx quote that line directly, or did he come up with his each-according-to-their-own-needs doctrine on his own?

Jesus' mother Mary says that Jesus will "fill the starving with good things and send the rich away empty" and will "pull the princes from their thrones and raise high the lowly." I guess the big guy came by his politics from his mom.

Speaking of the big guy's family, in the Book of James, which is purportedly written by Jesus' brother (and scholars think there is a pretty good chance it really was), James really goes heavy into the class warfare stuff. In James 2: 1-13, there is an extended admonishment on respect for the poor and mercy. In 2: 5-8, he says it is the poor whom God chose to be loved, and the rich "who are always against you." In 2: 13, he says that "there will be judgment without mercy for those who have not been merciful themselves, but the merciful need have no fear of judgment."

And in 5: 16, he condemns the rich again starting out: "Now an answer for the rich. Start crying, weep for the miseries coming to you... Laborers plowed your fields and you cheated them: listen to the wages you kept back, calling out: realize that the cries of the workers have reached the ears of the Lord."

Judeo-Christian scripture is a rich and complicated work of literature. Written over the course of (at least) several hundred years by dozens of different authors, there are a variety of perspectives and many times outright contradictions in the theology and the politics of the writing (if it's all inspired word for word by God, He seems to have changed his mind a lot). But one thing is extremely certain: the poor seem to be who God is most concerned about. Yes, there are a few quotations (four, if I remember right) trashing gay people, along with quite a few more about the right way to do animal sacrifice and to be careful about eating shellfish and hanging out with women who are menstruating. But mercy, kindness, and concern for the poor and the weak and the outcast seems to matter a lot more, with literally several hundred verses referencing those agenda items. If you are a progressive, that is a pretty good ratio."

Transward

[TheOtherSide (imported)]

You can be both, for any given definition of Christianity.

It's true, Jesus supposedly hung out with prostitutes, druggies, the poor, and the forrgotten. Christianity today though, is a much different animal. As a test, dress in your grubbies. Your 'puttering around' clothes. You know the ones, they have holes, grease stains, and would probably be rejected by charities. Don't shave for a couple days. Don't shower, either. Then hie yourself to a church on Sunday, and see if they accept you.

I'm more than willing to bet that a majority of the so-called Christians out there wouldn't accept someone like that in their church. The vast majority of them are 'Sunday Christians' at best. Concerned with appearances at church, mouthing the words of Jesus, without actually practicing the meaning behind them. Supremely convinced that because they attend a sermon once a week, that they're better than everyone else, and can not only pass judgement upon others, but forget the most important parts of what Jesus was trying to teach people.

Just remember, you can screw people over 6 days a week, treat others as cattle, and force your views on whomever you want, so long as you attend Church on Sunday. After all, isn't that what Christianty really means?

(To be fair, I have met precicely one person to date that I would call a true Christian. And I haven't seen him on this board in quite some time. If you read this, Sag, you are missed.)

[lilolme4 (imported)]

I would say "Render unto Caesar". Give to the state what is the state's and give to God what is God's. I think the bible is clear that helping the poor and giving up your wealth is a spiritual decision regarding your closeness with God. He never said anything about Caesar taking wealth from the rich and redistributing it to the poor.

The other side of the issue is that there are other concerns. I'm sure there are many conservatives who would love to support more liberal policies to help the poor. However, doing so would put them in bed with people who want to further the abortion agenda, homosexual marriage and other social considerations they feel are more detrimental to society.

If they can help people on their own dime and not have to support politicians who support social positions they oppose, why shouldn't they see that as the best way?

[Riverwind (imported)]

The one thing that has not been said about Jesus was the love, feel the love of the Conservative Christian, as long as you believe the way they do, don't you dare be different in any way.

But they are right, we should change the history books to reflect our Christian values, remove books that we find offensive from the library's so our children will not be wrongly influenced with bad ideas, like the Harry Potter books, we need to be careful who we allow to play with our children and make sure there the right kind of people, (white), we need to protect the life of an unborn child even if it costs the life of the mother, and gays getting married, well we need to stop this because we have no tolerance for anybody that is different from us. And we will wave the bible as our banner and quote one or two verses to prove our point then go out and have a steak and lobster dinner with an ice cream sundae for desert breaking all the laws around the only one they like to quote.

WHY

Because we are Christian Conservatives who believe that earth is only 6000 years old and Adam and Eve were the first man and woman, and because we believe the word of the bible as the word of GOD, yes that one, literally the way it was written. And that part about the 6th day when God yes that one created man and woman in his own image and in his image he created them has nothing to do with Adam who was created after God yes the same one rested on the 7th day and then some time later created the garden of Eden, then created Adam to take care of it, then Adam got horny so God yes the same one we have been talking about created Eve. I could go on with them having 2 sons, one kills the other then goes into the land of Nod and takes a wife an starts a city. WHAT? Where did those people come from? OH MY GOD< not that one just an expression, but did Cain marry his (sister)? NO, he never had a sister, the Bible never said that. So what did he do, take a MONKEY for his wife?????????? It gets worse, just start reading.

Then there is Jesus, not our Jesus but the other one, who if he came back today would not be allowed in that group of Conservative Christians because

1. he was not white,

2. he would be considered a liberal,

3. he was a Jew,

Ref:A

OH Damn, there I go, doing something the Christian Conservatives hate, I actually read the bible, yes that one, the whole thing, go back to the first post in this thread for he is right on the money.

Fact,

The universe is about 13.5 Billion years old

The solar system we live in is about 9 Billion years old

and

Earth is about 8.5 Billion years old.

It, the Earth, is not the center of the universe.

Odds say that there are millions of planets out there with life on them, and odds are some are way more advanced then us, they most likely don't have Conservative Christians mucking up the works.

Science has proven that, what do the Conservative Christians say about that, The Bible, (that book that has no equal, no prof, its all about faith, no facts) says the universe and earth in it was created in 6 days.

And if you believe that I know of some swamp land in Nebraska that you will love.

Hubble has seen Billions of galaxies each with Trillions of stars but we can ignore that because the Bible did not say that, other then one small reference that there are more stars in the sky then grands of sand on the beach. That might just be the only true statement in the whole damn book.

Is there a God, yes that one, don't know, don't really care. Is there more then one God, the Bible says there is. So I think the I will worship the Earth Mother as my god, yes that one, she gives me life, she will hold me in death, and cares for me along the way. I also like Father Sky, its a marriage made in, OH dare I say it, Heaven.

Ref:A If you are like me I read many things, and over the years I have read many books on Mythology, one thing they all have in common, they all describe how earth was created and mans place in that world. This is true from the Egyptian, Greek and Roman mythologies to a small ban of people that run around naked in the forests of South America, each and every one of them tells the story of how this world came to be and that they were the chosen ones by the Gods. Now with an open mind and thinking mythology go back and read the first book of the bible again. If you do and you keep that open mind, it sure reads like mythology to me. Because there is no prof that anything in Genesis is for real, its all just a wonderful STORY, and like all books and stories, you must start somewhere.

River

[Elizabeth (imported)]

I would say "Render unto Caesar". Give to the state what is the state's and give to God what is God's. I think the bible is clear that helping the poor and giving up your wealth is a spiritual decision regarding your closeness with God. He never said anything about Caesar taking wealth from the rich and redistributing it to the poor.

The other side of the issue is that there are other concerns. I'm sure there are many conservatives who would love to support more liberal policies to help the poor. However, doing so would put them in bed with people who want to further the abortion agenda, homosexual marriage and other social considerations they feel are more detrimental to society.

If they can help people on their own dime and not have to support politicians who support social positions they oppose, why shouldn't they see that as the best way?

Jesus was quite clear in Mathew where he said "it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven"

Rich guys are not getting in. You can not be a "good Christian" and be rich. Bush43 is not going to heaven.

The idea that homosexuality harms society is a made up one. Why is it that Christians should be the ones to decide what is right for society? It's this idea of trying to control what others do that causes all the problems.

Right wing Christians are all for using Government to enforce their religion, such as abortion bans or bans on gay marriage. But when it comes to healing the poor, suddenly the government is too powerful.

It's a huge crock of crap. If you are against abortions? Don't have one. If you are against being gay? Don't be gay. If you are against gay marriage? Don't marry someone the same sex as you. But please stop telling others what they have a right to do, based on your beliefs. Are they not entitled to their own beliefs?

The truth is, there are two huge power brokers. Government and Religion. Both raise money by demanding it, and both exhibit control over the group. Religion and government used to be the same thing. This was the first government to separate religious and governmental powers. The government does not make morality laws based on religion and religion can collect money and execute their doctrine, free of being taxed or interfered with.

Poor, hungry, sick people commit crime because they have nothing to lose. The government has a clear interest in keeping people healthy and fed. It's a moral obligation that has been recognized throughout the world and the only people that say that healthcare should be a privilege and not a right, are people that can afford it or have great insurance already. It's greed. And that is not Jesus like. It can not be justified by the Christian religion, and it's a contradiction. That makes Christians seem to be insincere. If they really cared about society, the poor and sick would be the real concern, not gay marriage and abortion.

Elizabeth

[MacTheWolf (imported)]

A most excellent thread and most excellent posts following. My sincere compliments

I never realized you all were so long winded

I gave points to all

[Sweetpickle (imported)]

I thought liloleme came across as too much of a stereotype.

I think there are conservatives who do not toe the catholic

church line of "no abortion ever" and "gay is a sin".

There are a lot of people who are fiscal conservatives but

social progressives.

It seems as if those who used to be "conservative" have

had their politics made a laughing stock by the likes of

Sarah, Rush, Glen and a host of other publicity seekers.

[Dave (imported)]

The Amish are as conservative as anyone can get and that's the true meaning of the word -- they conserve the old lifestyle -- and there is no question that they are Christians.

[bobover3 (imported)]

Buy a bigger needle.

http://breadandwine.files.wordpress.com ... urreal.jpg

[bobover3 (imported)]

As an atheist who believes Christianity has been more of a bane than a boon to suffering humanity, I welcome as high praise the thought that Christianity and conservatism are incompatible.

It's no accident that Marx's view of commerce was indistinguishable from that of the medieval Fathers of the Church. It's also no accident that Christianity is waning everywhere but in South America and Africa, where the poor multitudes embrace the idea that poverty is a sign of virtue, and that "there'll be pie in the sky by and by."